Cultural Levels & technology in Ravenloft

[alhoon]

Note that he did say "IMC".
...
Ultimately it all comes down to what works for you and your gaming group. And we're back to the three all-powerful letters: "IMC".

Ehhh... in the whole discussion we just say our opinion and how we do things in our own campaigns. Ewancummins could make Strahd a 11th lvl bard vampire for all I know in his campaign changing his curse to eternally looking for the perfect song and lamenting the lack of humanity that tramps his creativity.
I would just say that IMC that wouldn't work and that I wouldn't like it.

Ewan? Are we clear that I just offer my opinion and I'm not trying to force you to conform to my opinion? I don't even try to convice you, I just discuss your opinion with mine.

I think what ewan means is that in a world where magic exists, it is part of the "naturally" occurring phenomena of the place. Therefore, the people who study it would be scientists in a way.

Yup, that is it!

The whole idea of a magic/science dichotomy strikes me as nonsensical in an overtly magical world like Ravenloft.

That's why it only shows up, IMC, in a single domain. Despite any mumbo jumbo about 'Reason'; to assert a materialistic, 'scientific' worldview in Ravenloft is to be completely unreasonable. Ignorant or deluded Lamordians are able to maintain their false ideas mainly because they remain within their own country, where magic is suppressed by the 'Smothering.'

Oh, I got it now. I had understood wrong before.

[ewancummins]

Ewan? Are we clear that I just offer my opinion and I'm not trying to force you to conform to my opinion? I don't even try to convice you, I just discuss your opinion with mine.

Oh, yeah, we are 100% clear!
As you say, this whole thread is about how different DMs handle this stuff in their own respective versions of Ravenloft.
I don't think anyone here is trying to impose his views on others.

HumanBing is just checking the tone, I imagine. On the 'net, it's easy for guys to misread one another. If I am correct, HB also frequents the SJGames boards. Let's just say that he and I have both seen some pointless flame wars over there!

This is FoS, and we are all pretty much all cool, polite, respectful, and fun-loving. That's certainly my opinion of both you, Alhoon, and HumanBing.

-Ewan

[HuManBing]

HumanBing is just checking the tone, I imagine. On the 'net, it's easy for guys to misread one another.

Absolutely - I know alhoon's good for his word, and his word is good for me. I just wanted to make sure that an unintentional phrase didn't come out wrong for any of us.

The SJGames forums are about as well-regulated and friendly as the Fraternity, actually, so that's a blessing. These two are easily my favorite RPG discussion sites for exactly that reason.

I was actually thinking more of the WOTC forums as a lightly-regulated, frequently-hostile place. There, it was (in 2008 at least) entirely plausible to see a poster with no real-life connection to you, tearing your idea to shreds and launching all manner of personal attacks just because they arbitrarily don't like something you wrote. It's even more fascinating that this sort of poster thinks that being rude will change anything. Rational people and mature gamers rarely adopt or abandon an idea just because some online loudmouth berates them for it.

People tend to pick up ideas and suggestions when they're politely made and contain substantive merit. The Fraternity and SJGames are excellent examples of this.

[ewancummins]

[People tend to pick up ideas and suggestions when they're politely made and contain substantive merit. The Fraternity and SJGames are excellent examples of this.

True, but there are some trolls on SJGames. Not too many, of course.
It's not gorram Trollheim like RPG.NET.

[alhoon]

I was actually thinking more of the WOTC forums as a lightly-regulated, frequently-hostile place.

I don't go there anymore. Back when I was a lurker there you would see people making personal attacks for things like straying from canon or their interpretion of canon. Doom to you if you posted an idea that contradicted something that was buried in a supplement of a supplement. They would be upon you faster than the Tepestani inquisition over a fairtoned bark-skinned fey with leaves for hair.

[ewancummins]

I don't go there anymore. Back when I was a lurker there you would see people making personal attacks for things like straying from canon or their interpretion of canon. Doom to you if you posted an idea that contradicted something that was buried in a supplement of a supplement. They would be upon you faster than the Tepestani inquisition over a fairtoned bark-skinned fey with leaves for hair.

Yeah, that's annoying.

[Rotipher of the FoS]

The whole point with the firearms historically though was that they were cheap, easy to use and easy to train people in their use.

"Cheap" is relative, though. Cheaper than a fully-armored knight and his horse? Yes. Cheaper than ordinary melee weapons, probably not.

[ewancummins]

The whole point with the firearms historically though was that they were cheap, easy to use and easy to train people in their use.

"Cheap" is relative, though. Cheaper than a fully-armored knight and his horse? Yes. Cheaper than ordinary melee weapons, probably not.

Melee weapons and guns go very well together. Why choose between 'em? People in Early Modern Europe saw a need for both. Pikes and guns were used in conjunction for much of what Raveloft calls CL 8 & 9. When guns were still fairly slow to load and cumbersome, pikemen were needed to protect the gun-equipped troops while they reloaded. Soldiers in Early Modern Europe often carried and used swords, if they could afford 'em. Early guns didn't eliminate the need for hand to hand arms. Steel is always a nice backup. Even today we still use bayonets, or strike with rifle butts.

Don't worry about hand weapons. It's the heavy armor that's really expensive. The cost of equipping and a lot of pikemen and musketeers in buff coats is much lower than the equivalent force of heavy cavalry in plate armor. Bullet-resistant (proof) armor could be made, and was made, in the 1500s and 1600s- but it was heavy and very expensive. Full suits were hot. Economics, tactical considerations, and improvements in the range and reliaability of guns all helped lead to a decline in armor- but guns did not simply show up and blast the stuff off the battlefield. There is a place for partial plate armor even at CL 9.Witness the heavy cavalry of Poland in the 1600s, or of Gustavas Adolphus' army.

Okay, pedant mode off.LOL

One question I have is why ignition systems seem to vary so much across the Core. The best answer I can think of is to model the firearms technology on the 1500s, a century that overlaps CL 8 & 9, during which a number of different ignition systems were in use across Europe and other parts of the 'Old World.'

It may also be that the relative lack of wars has retarded weapons technology in Ravenloft. This may explain why advances that spread quickly in our world spread more slowly in Ravenloft (this works much better, IMO, if you use an enlarged mapscale- thus, greater distances between centers of production and innovation)

Do the advanced CL 9 domains actually have socket bayonets? If much of the need for pikes is eliminated. There are still some situations in which a pike is handy, of course.

I've noticed that people tend to focus on small arms. What about cannon?

How do you guys handle these things, IYC?

[Diesirae]

A cannon? im still trying to figuere out a way to smuggle in an A-Bomb.
Just kidding.
Actually this has never come up in any of my campaigns. My PCs and I typically hate large scale battles and instruments of war are typically not a large thing to mention (unless its plot related)
But now that you mention is, i am curious what other IYCs do...

[ewancummins]

IC, the general lack of wars (Ravenloft-as-published is a lot more peaceful than other published campaign settings- a pleasant feature that 'Hellworld' guys overlook ) has retarded the diffusion of military technology/military science. There's less need to keep up with the neighbors.

Cannon do exist. They are used. Many small countries/polities lack the infrastructure to build, maintain, supply, and man large numbers of cannon.

I like the European link between bellmakers and bronze cannon, so I use something similiar in Richemulot and Borca.

[alhoon]

A cannon? im still trying to figuere out a way to smuggle in an A-Bomb.

Hmm? Doesn't Azalin's BOOOOM did that for you well enough?

[Diesirae]

well.....you know me...(actually most people here dont yet i've only recently been reanimat.... reactivated my account).when your favorite villain is the greatest mass murderer of all time (Mr Rose Knight turned death knight whose responsible for a certain cataclysm) a Bomb like azalin's is kind of a bloop in the water.

Just kidding...you go Glenn Coco Zal'honan you go!

[alhoon]

There's a difference between an A-bomb and moon crushing on earth. You asked about a small nuke.

[Diesirae]

There's a difference between an A-bomb and moon crushing on earth. You asked about a small nuke.

True...maybe i can make it a holy altar used by the subdwellers in bluetspur. But it would be mostly a Christmas easter thing. hehe

The more im thinking of tech..(and this is beyond the scope CL in use) I'm actually introducing a domain beneath the Sea of Sorrows based on Rapture from BioShock. The tech level will be at what 1930's 1940's so im jumping beyond the cannon straight to the rifle (and there will be an A Bomb there btw, Alhoon. )
This is less to introduce usable/exploitable tech but to provide the PCs with a fun adventure.

[alhoon]

In a homebrew world, not Ravenloft, I had a Sunless Citadel (I.e. mind flayer city) where the Abyssal creed (sholars studying fear) and the Creators creed (creating psionic/scientific things) managed to find a way to use "night-eggs", devices of increadible psionic and arcane power (forbiden to mind flayers, but anyway) that unleashed a blast that dealt a lot of psionic mind damage, a lot of force damage and a bit of negative energy damage, although they tainted the earth so that it would cause negative damage/round for months. The radius was something about 1000' or so, but if they all blew up together (PCs obviously went for that) the radius would be 3000' (or so, comparable to Hiroshima). They took down the mind flayer colony that way and escaped the chaos.