Café de Nuit

BORCA

The main question here seems to be whether to keep Ivana and Ivan as co-darklords or ditch one or the other. I think it was a stroke of genius to combine the domains and pitting these two against each other. I would hate to lose that dynamic but if a gun were put to my head I would have to say I think Ivana is the stronger darklord. (There's plenty of flamboyant noblemen with sadistic streaks, but a woman forever isolated due the poison she carries in her own blood is a more unique setup.)

Simple Substitutions – I can only think of a few candidates here, but all of them have their weaknesses. There's Ivana's confidante, Nostalia Romaine, but that's just replacing one woman that has a poison touch with another. Then, there's the werebat nobleman, Vladimir Nobriskov (from COTN: Werebeasts), but that would give the domain a darklord very similar to its neighbor Barovia. There's also the Jongleur, who has been confirmed as a child of the Gentleman Caller, but too little is known about him. We don't know what evil deeds he has perpetrated and for now he seems content in the position he is in with no goal of attaining more power.

My own inclination would be to have Ivana delve further into some alchemical studies, perhaps importing instructors from Paridon to better learn the craft. She eventually becomes adept enough to create an Alchemical Child (see Van Richten's Arsenal for details) but she is unhappy with the results and tosses the failed experiment into the trash. But this “child” survives and actually grows stronger, all the while nursing an undying hatred for the “mother” that cast her out. Now this child has set on a path of revenge and set her sights on both Ivan and Ivana. I think a theme of lost innocence would work well with this domain.

Evil Evolved – Let's start things off with the cousins openly declaring war with each other. (Imagine something like a Poison Ivy vs. Joker fight to rule Gotham City with nary a hope of Batman stepping in to stop things from going too far.) Ivana somehow gains the upper hand, but Ivan decides that if he has to go out he's gonna take everyone with him. He poisons the aquifer that supplies water to the entire domain with a newer, more volatile version of Borrowed Time – one that will mutate you before it kills you. Ivana manages to create a strain of plants that filter the poison out of the ecosystem, but not before the poison takes its toll on the populace.

Now Borca is full of people walking around with large networks of scars all over their bodies, while others are missing limbs entirely. Even Ivana was not immune, as half her face is scarred from the attack and never appears in public without a mask on to cover her wounds. So, even though Ivan is gone, his handiwork remains on the very bodies of his people.

Extreme Makeover Edition – What if the current Praesidia of the Home Faith decides to flex their muscle and institute a Vatican-like takeover of the entire domain? Whoever is in charge can declare themselves the Prime Heirophant (whose true identity could possibly tie back into Ivana's alchemical child from above?) and start an inquisition to get rid of all the thieving nobles and their deadly feuding (perhaps as a result of the above domain wide affliction caused by Ivan). While this may result in a kindler, gentler state of things for the poorer inhabitants, this benevolence hides an avaricious appetite for the finer things in life. Thus, the Home Faith also institutes a secret crusade to gather together all the treasures of the Core as well as eliminating all other religions. Whether any of this is successful is a story for another time, but I think this change in darklords could lead to some interesting developments...

TheArcaneWeirdo wrote: Mon Feb 16, 2026 11:03 am
That's a paradox.

If a creature is 100% inherently evil, it cannot choose between good and evil and thus cannot be held accountable for its evil acts. (Efforts, including violent ones if needed, should be made to stop it from harming others - but there's no point in punishing it for something it can't regret.)

If a creature isn't 100% inherently evil, its morality should be measured by the choices it made out of the options it had. Even the best people have cruel or selfish urges once in a while - the question is whether or not we act on them.

But that's not what Ravenloft / Gothic Horror relies on though. Through his own actions, a Darklord (or someone) would render him/her/itself irredeemable. Take for example the God Brain. It is an elder brain that is, somehow, worse than the run-of-the-mill Elder Brain.
On the other side, we have fiends. They are MADE evil, to the point that their evil is so pronounced that it changes the demiplane and the Dark Powers have to TRICK THEM through Power rituals to trap them.
Fiends cannot choose selfishly (in Ravenloft's way of portraying them at least) and yet, their evil is such that the Dark Powers change the rules in order to trap them.

In fact, I do not think Darklords are irredeemable. I have also many non evil Elder Brains and mind flayers. They eat cloned brains. And use cloned bodies to reproduce. The spell Clone specifies that the cloned body is soul-less so not alive but perfectly functioning.

alhoon wrote: Fri Feb 20, 2026 5:40 pm

TheArcaneWeirdo wrote: Mon Feb 16, 2026 11:03 am
That's a paradox.

If a creature is 100% inherently evil, it cannot choose between good and evil and thus cannot be held accountable for its evil acts. (Efforts, including violent ones if needed, should be made to stop it from harming others - but there's no point in punishing it for something it can't regret.)

If a creature isn't 100% inherently evil, its morality should be measured by the choices it made out of the options it had. Even the best people have cruel or selfish urges once in a while - the question is whether or not we act on them.

But that's not what Ravenloft / Gothic Horror relies on though. Through his own actions, a Darklord (or someone) would render him/her/itself irredeemable. Take for example the God Brain. It is an elder brain that is, somehow, worse than the run-of-the-mill Elder Brain.
On the other side, we have fiends. They are MADE evil, to the point that their evil is so pronounced that it changes the demiplane and the Dark Powers have to TRICK THEM through Power rituals to trap them.
Fiends cannot choose selfishly (in Ravenloft's way of portraying them at least) and yet, their evil is such that the Dark Powers change the rules in order to trap them.

But here we get to the question: How was what Adam did worse than what any dread golem does?

Like, I give the God Brain's writers a pass for not answering that question for a simple reason: the God Brain isn't supposed to go by Gothic Horror rules. It's 100% aimed towards a more lovecraftian direction, which is a different subgenre meant to be scary in a different way.
Like.
A normal Elder Brain is already a nightmare. To think that this specific Elder Brain is somehow the worst of them... It's supposed to get you asking 'How? Why? What line could you possibly cross to be considered an abomination among abomination?'. And the whole point is that you aren't supposed to get an answer, cause not knowing, being unable to even imagine what it could be, is the horrifying part.

Adam isn't like that. He was created by a human, and we pretty much know how and why that human did it. We have a whole (amazing, BTW) book about the psychological processes behind the creation, development and corruption of a dread golem. Everything about him is as clear as the sun, except for what makes him darklord-tier evil.
I think there's a certain balance that must be kept between how sympathetic a villain is, and how bad their deeds are and how much the narrative justifies them. Adam is pretty sympathetic - mental issues to begin with, rejected by his own parents and feeling every bit of the anger they felt towards him, doomed to be an outcast by humanity's narrow-mindedness long before he did anything wrong - so if you want anyone to wanna fight him rather than sit and give him a pep talk, if you want him to be taken seriously as a villain, you have to work harder to show him acting like one. Cause right now he's not in my 'irredeemable villains' box, he's in my 'morally grey characters that really just need a year or two of therapy' box.

Mistmaster wrote: Fri Feb 20, 2026 6:54 pm In fact, I do not think Darklords are irredeemable.

TBH, so do I. But that's because of how I generally view redemption.
To me, it's a duty, not a privilege. You did something wrong? make it right somehow. Can't make it right? Check again. Really can't make it right? Accept the consequences for yourself, minimise them for everyone else, never repeat it again, and try to think how you can still do some good. You owe that to those you've hurt, to God and to yourself. And if you don't pay that debt, if you keep doing bad stuff, it only grows. The debt isn't erased simply because it's too large to repay.
So the way I see it, darklords simply have, like, billions of cosmic debt. It will obviously take forever to repay, so they're given forever. They can change their ways and should start it as soon as possible, but most of them choose not to - and that's what makes them so bad. Not the fact they've failed too many times, but the fact they either keep failing or no longer even try.

The key point to me is that they need to resolve THEIR specifical issue. Thery could also BE good for a period, but if their goal stay the same it will end in disaster. My Strahd for example tried the way of good two times (Strahd V and Strahd X)but on the ground it could allow him to have Tatyana. It did not end well.

Mistmaster wrote: Sat Feb 21, 2026 2:51 pm The key point to me is that they need to resolve THEIR specifical issue. Thery could also BE good for a period, but if their goal stay the same it will end in disaster. My Strahd for example tried the way of good two times (Strahd V and Strahd X)but on the ground it could allow him to have Tatyana. It did not end well.

Tell me more.

Well, the QtR 31 article on Barovia is more exahustive, but to sum it up, Both Strahd V, the Atoner and Strahd X the Wise where Strahd's attempt to change his destiny by behaving good. Both where, in my personal opinion Good, N/G and L/G but both tried to get their incarnationof Tatyana. Strahd V married her only forhertobekilled by Inajira trying to gety Strahd's soul. Strahd X Tatyana's incarnation was a Paladin, who encouraged him to support force of good all around the world. One of this was a then young revolutionary wizard called Firan Zah'lonan. He exposed Strahd X as a Vampire to Tatyana, and in the ensuing battleTatyana's incarnation was killed. In the Mistworld Vampire Regeneration works a bit as that of Time Lords of Dr Who. The Reborn Vampire is the samebeing but different. In the case of Strahd, usually a younger version different enought to seem just a close relative. Personality can change too, from a bit to a lot.

Jeremy16 wrote: Thu Feb 19, 2026 2:44 pm BORCA

The main question here seems to be whether to keep Ivana and Ivan as co-darklords or ditch one or the other. I think it was a stroke of genius to combine the domains and pitting these two against each other. I would hate to lose that dynamic but if a gun were put to my head I would have to say I think Ivana is the stronger darklord. (There's plenty of flamboyant noblemen with sadistic streaks, but a woman forever isolated due the poison she carries in her own blood is a more unique setup.)

That's why I love the VRGtR take on Ivan (which was already discussed in this thread). It makes him a lot more unique, but IMHO feels like a natural continuation of his canon personality.

And I'm not sure Ivana's curse is so unique. 'Isolated by lethal touch' is a pretty common trope. Currently the only example I can think of is Rouge from X-Men, but I feel like I've seen more of these before.

My own inclination would be to have Ivana delve further into some alchemical studies, perhaps importing instructors from Paridon to better learn the craft. She eventually becomes adept enough to create an Alchemical Child (see Van Richten's Arsenal for details) but she is unhappy with the results and tosses the failed experiment into the trash. But this “child” survives and actually grows stronger, all the while nursing an undying hatred for the “mother” that cast her out. Now this child has set on a path of revenge and set her sights on both Ivan and Ivana. I think a theme of lost innocence would work well with this domain.

Nice one. But won't it be a little too similar to Adam?
I'm not saying this in a 'something similar had been done before so it's unoriginal and you can't ever do it'. By this logic, no one will ever start writing, cause you don't start with an original idea - you start with a cliche one then refine it into originality.
I'm saying this because Adam, specifically, is a 'failed' darklord. His backstory and motivation is too reletable, his actions too grey for him to pass as the nigh-irredeemable villain a darklord is meant to be. It's not because he's a badly written character, but because he doesn't fit the concept of Ravenloft. Frankenstein's monster is an incredible horror character, but he simply isn't darklord material (It's interesting how both of the controversial darklords - Adam and Malken - are obvious expies. I feel like the writers were like 'Well, the Dracula expy worked great, so let's do the other classics' without thinking whether they fit the setting's concept.).
Revenge at the parent who abandoned you is... I wouldn't say it's legitimate, I never support the lethal sort of revenge, but it's very understandable. It's in the 'villain's who just need a hug' box. Even moreso when said parent intentionally created you through a complex magical process they put a ton of effort, thinkings and money into (seriously. IRL, at least from what I've seen, people who had a child through artificial means - sperm donor, surrogacy etc. - are usually the most attentive and caring parents. Maybe sometimes too helicoptery, but rarely neglective. I can't imagine going through so much just to have a child then through her to the trash.) and especially when the parent is a tyrant and a serial killer like Ivana.
So while I like the Alchemical Child plot, I think it would be very hard to make her a convincing darklord. You'd have to either make another darklord and keep the AC as a more grey character (maybe even a protagonist. I genuinely want to play that character.), or have her do some truly horrendous stuff to convince folks her backstory isn't a justification.

Evil Evolved – Let's start things off with the cousins openly declaring war with each other. (Imagine something like a Poison Ivy vs. Joker fight to rule Gotham City with nary a hope of Batman stepping in to stop things from going too far.) Ivana somehow gains the upper hand, but Ivan decides that if he has to go out he's gonna take everyone with him. He poisons the aquifer that supplies water to the entire domain with a newer, more volatile version of Borrowed Time – one that will mutate you before it kills you. Ivana manages to create a strain of plants that filter the poison out of the ecosystem, but not before the poison takes its toll on the populace.

Now Borca is full of people walking around with large networks of scars all over their bodies, while others are missing limbs entirely. Even Ivana was not immune, as half her face is scarred from the attack and never appears in public without a mask on to cover her wounds. So, even though Ivan is gone, his handiwork remains on the very bodies of his people.

I love this one, because it gives parties something to do.
Like, I can imagine this as the climax of a classic 'caught between two darklords' adventure, maybe with the PCs having to help Ivana stop the mass poisoning. I'm seriously considering to run this (when I finally get to writing my campaign...)
But if you do a post-ToUD campaign, this would still be relevant! It's a disaster that affected the whole population in one way or another, and still does. I already have 2 character ideas revolving around this.

Extreme Makeover Edition – What if the current Praesidia of the Home Faith decides to flex their muscle and institute a Vatican-like takeover of the entire domain? Whoever is in charge can declare themselves the Prime Heirophant (whose true identity could possibly tie back into Ivana's alchemical child from above?) and start an inquisition to get rid of all the thieving nobles and their deadly feuding (perhaps as a result of the above domain wide affliction caused by Ivan). While this may result in a kindler, gentler state of things for the poorer inhabitants, this benevolence hides an avaricious appetite for the finer things in life. Thus, the Home Faith also institutes a secret crusade to gather together all the treasures of the Core as well as eliminating all other religions. Whether any of this is successful is a story for another time, but I think this change in darklords could lead to some interesting developments...

Hmmmm. Interesting.
I could see this as a natural continuation of Option 2:
Borca's current economy is hypercapitalism thinly disguised as feudalism. With so many people crippled by the poisoning... I mean, I can't imagine Ivana giving these folks disability benefits. A lot of people would go hungry. And angry. And, strangly, hopeful - One tyrant down, one more to go.
So if so far people were willing to try and scrape a living in this broken system, now they'd get the idea that the system is working just as intended and has to - and can be dismantled. The church would realise no amount of 'ophium of the masses' can stop the revolution anymore, and if they don't want to be thrown out of the same window as the nobility, they better be jumping on the bandwagon.

While we're at it, what's up with the Church of Ezra? How are they doing after the apocalypse?

TheArcaneWeirdo wrote: Mon Feb 23, 2026 9:28 am While we're at it, what's up with the Church of Ezra? How are they doing after the apocalypse?

I think it really depends on Raines. How accurate he was, and what will he do before, during and after the ToUD.
You see, being a doomsayer is easy; helping the world survive said doom is harder.

My (pretty based, I think) theory is that Ezra was a mortal adventurer who somehow turned into one of the Dark Powers in order to act as a voice of compassion among them. However, she's one voice among many, and if the others can find an opportunity to use her own religion against her, they'll do it.
So while I do think the ToUD would have a cosmic justice component, there ain't a chance in the mists that it's gonna be as simple as 'Ezra's believers will be safe and stuff will be very bad for everyone else'. (Personally I think it's gonna be this kind of doomsday for the darklords. A final test for each of them, forcing them to face their mistakes once and for all. Can Strahd finally let go of Tatanya? Can Vlad Drakov choose peace? Can Adam stop blaming his daddy issues for his own choices?) Raines' forced conversions are only going to add to the chaos. At some point he'd have to choose between sticking to his old dogma and actually helping (so he'll have his own doomsday test!).
The thing is, most of Raines' willing converts are Darkonians who abandoned The Eternal Order after their devotion failed to stop the last apocalypse. He's going to have to work very hard to preserve their loyalty. The Nevuchar Springs sect could end up as the heroes saving the day, the side-villains making it worse, or simply a failure that will make Vlad Drakov feel good with himself.
That is, assuming I'm right and they're wrong.
It could be the opposite. Raines is a jerk, but he might be the jerk we need. If what he does works, or seems to work, this can end up worse in the long term, cause a fanatic jerk gaining popularity and bring accepted as the mouth of Ezra us the last thing we need and the last thing the church needs. I could see in that direction a theocracy starting - but hear me out:
Maybe two rival ones?
Maybe the Home Faith starts a theocracy in Borca like in Jeremy16's third idea, and Raines start another theocracy in his new domain where eastern Darkon once was (Maybe he's one of the demilords in a rerun of the Darklord Talent Show?), and they're totally different and don't get along?

But there's also the question of... What's the Nevuchar Springs' sect's purpose after the ToUD ended? Maybe the sect would just dissolve? Would they help rebuilding? Or find a new target for their fanatcism?

TheArcaneWeirdo wrote: Mon Feb 23, 2026 9:10 am

Jeremy16 wrote: Thu Feb 19, 2026 2:44 pm BORCA

The main question here seems to be whether to keep Ivana and Ivan as co-darklords or ditch one or the other. I think it was a stroke of genius to combine the domains and pitting these two against each other. I would hate to lose that dynamic but if a gun were put to my head I would have to say I think Ivana is the stronger darklord. (There's plenty of flamboyant noblemen with sadistic streaks, but a woman forever isolated due the poison she carries in her own blood is a more unique setup.)

That's why I love the VRGtR take on Ivan (which was already discussed in this thread). It makes him a lot more unique, but IMHO feels like a natural continuation of his canon personality.

As a progression of the character from 3E to 5E, he's alright. I've warmed up to the new version of Ivan a little more since my initial VRGtRL review. But the drastic change the authors made show that even they didn't think his original version was that compelling!

TheArcaneWeirdo wrote: Mon Feb 23, 2026 9:10 am And I'm not sure Ivana's curse is so unique. 'Isolated by lethal touch' is a pretty common trope. Currently the only example I can think of is Rouge from X-Men, but I feel like I've seen more of these before.

It's a trope, yes, but I wouldn't say it's that common. Like you said, there's only Rogue from the X-Men comics and maybe Poison Ivy from the Batman comics if you want to expand the category to "can kill with a kiss." That's all that comes to mind from my over 40 years of consuming media. That's pretty rare company and worth keeping around!

TheArcaneWeirdo wrote: Mon Feb 23, 2026 9:10 am

Jeremy16 wrote: Thu Feb 19, 2026 2:44 pm

My own inclination would be to have Ivana delve further into some alchemical studies, perhaps importing instructors from Paridon to better learn the craft. She eventually becomes adept enough to create an Alchemical Child (see Van Richten's Arsenal for details) but she is unhappy with the results and tosses the failed experiment into the trash. But this “child” survives and actually grows stronger, all the while nursing an undying hatred for the “mother” that cast her out. Now this child has set on a path of revenge and set her sights on both Ivan and Ivana. I think a theme of lost innocence would work well with this domain.

Nice one. But won't it be a little too similar to Adam?

Maybe as he stands now, but I've got some drastic changes to Lamordia and its darklord in the pipeline!

TheArcaneWeirdo wrote: Mon Feb 23, 2026 9:10 am

Extreme Makeover Edition – What if the current Praesidia of the Home Faith decides to flex their muscle and institute a Vatican-like takeover of the entire domain? Whoever is in charge can declare themselves the Prime Heirophant (whose true identity could possibly tie back into Ivana's alchemical child from above?) and start an inquisition to get rid of all the thieving nobles and their deadly feuding (perhaps as a result of the above domain wide affliction caused by Ivan). While this may result in a kindler, gentler state of things for the poorer inhabitants, this benevolence hides an avaricious appetite for the finer things in life. Thus, the Home Faith also institutes a secret crusade to gather together all the treasures of the Core as well as eliminating all other religions. Whether any of this is successful is a story for another time, but I think this change in darklords could lead to some interesting developments...

Hmmmm. Interesting.
I could see this as a natural continuation of Option 2:
Borca's current economy is hypercapitalism thinly disguised as feudalism. With so many people crippled by the poisoning... I mean, I can't imagine Ivana giving these folks disability benefits. A lot of people would go hungry. And angry. And, strangly, hopeful - One tyrant down, one more to go.
So if so far people were willing to try and scrape a living in this broken system, now they'd get the idea that the system is working just as intended and has to - and can be dismantled. The church would realise no amount of 'ophium of the masses' can stop the revolution anymore, and if they don't want to be thrown out of the same window as the nobility, they better be jumping on the bandwagon.

That's the great thing about these apocalyptic scenarios. There's plenty of different ways to get there! You don't have to follow my blueprint, this is just a fun exercise in what-ifs.

Jeremy16 wrote: Wed Feb 25, 2026 7:20 pm

TheArcaneWeirdo wrote: Mon Feb 23, 2026 9:10 am And I'm not sure Ivana's curse is so unique. 'Isolated by lethal touch' is a pretty common trope. Currently the only example I can think of is Rouge from X-Men, but I feel like I've seen more of these before.

It's a trope, yes, but I wouldn't say it's that common. Like you said, there's only Rogue from the X-Men comics and maybe Poison Ivy from the Batman comics if you want to expand the category to "can kill with a kiss." That's all that comes to mind from my over 40 years of consuming media. That's pretty rare company and worth keeping around!

King Midas would be the classic one, although his version of the curse went even further and affected inanimate things and dead matter.