The Sorcerer

[Jester of the FoS]

Feats as extra spells are a good idea. But I'd only grant a single spell or two per feat but allow selection from an entire school. The spells would be selectable from any level currently castable.
This would work well with some sorc bonus feats.

Another option: What about extra spells known based on a high Cha? It grants bonus spells castable per day why not extra spells known? It would only really help at the lower levels unless some alternate chart was written up.

[Ail]

If I remember, all it did was grant you an extra spell from a specific school, but the regular wizard gains that extra spell too, and from any school.

I don't understand this statement.

Then let me explain. In 2ndEd, a specialist learned a new spell automatically when he raised level. The regular mage didn't, so this was the extra spell. This was my main motivation for picking a specialist back then, together with the extra slot I had forgotten (I told you I didn't quite remember the rules).
But in 3E, the specialist learns a new spell when he advances forcibly from his specialization, whereas the regular mage now also learns a new spell when he advances but from any school. So, what before was an advantage of teh specialist, is now a disadvantage.
Also, I think specialization should give a bonus in the DC of spells from the school, which I'm not sure it does. Finally, at lower levels, most spells from some schools are uninsteresting, and having to learn them forcingly instead of spells from other schools because there are no spells left is very bad for me.

I like general mages and of course it's up to the DM to give me the spells to learn, but I don't fancy being restricted in the schools I can choose.


Ail

[Troile]

You get 1 extra spell slot per level...that gives you so many more options for the spells you can take.

By being a general wizard you are denying yourself spells from other schools.

Nowhere does it say that the specialist wizard must learn a spell of her specialty every level.

Just make sure you pick a good specialty. There are plenty of schools that I would like to have 3 or 4 spells per level from.

Even if all you want is 1 it still gives you more schools to choose from.

For example...A wizard specialist with 3 spell slots vs a general wizard.

That wizard can memorize a spell from...

transmutation, abjuration, evocation

the general wizard can only

transmutation, abjuration

so really he is missing out on the extra school.

Specialist wizards are much better in 3e b/c you can pick your specialty and you can more importantly pick the schools prohibited to you.

I mean if you don't want to specialize go right ahead...but I'm just saying that specialization is really really powerful.

[Wiccy of the Fraternity]

I stil lthing that a specialist wizard offers you less schools to choose a spell from rather than more, based on the fact that you are denied to spell school, so you do in fact have less schoold to choose between, hence less spells to choose from, not more. A general wiazard has more spell schools availanle and so has more freedom and choice in what they memorise. Howver, a specialist may cast and extra spell per day but is must be from their specialist school.

A general wizard is never denying him/herself spells as they have access to all schools.

Sorry Troile, but your argument is flawed if you ask me.

[Troile]

There is an illusion of greater versatility but it isn't really there.

The key to a wizard is picking your spells wisely.

Its like this...

A specialist gets 50% more spell power at the greater level while still in bonus spells than the general wizard...

and 100% more power when out of bonus spell range.

Instead of getting 1 4th level spell per day he gets 2! Thats double!

So instead of picking b/n his 2 spells he can take both or have both of them be in the field of his specialty.

Wizards don't learn all the spells...and they are restricted to the number they can cast per day.

It is very easy to come up with a situation and say see a specialist wizard wouldn't have such and such spell...but to put it bluntly a normal wizard just b/c he isn't barred from that school isn't likely to have that spell either. Let alone have it memorized! with his pitiful spells per day.

I can see why people think sorcerers are powerful though if you stick to general wizards.

Getting 3 spells per day is so much better than 2..and 2 vs 1 is just insanity.

Specialist wizards are at least half again as powerful spellcasters as normal wizards.

[Wiccy of the Fraternity]

Hmmm... 1 extra spell per spell level or possible access to every wizard spell in existence? I choose the latter, you may not see it that way, but that is how it works

Example: A wizard specialises in Necromancy, in return she chooses to bar herself form the use of Enchantment and Transmutation. In exchange for 1 extra sell per spell level, she has made sure that she never has access to a total of 113 spells from the PHB alone.

If you look at that way, it DOES restrict the spellcasting ability of any wizard, not matter how you do the mathematics.

As for choosing what spells you receive, the only time you get to do that as a wizard in my games is when you create your character, at 1st level! If the wizard is created with more levels, I decide what spells he/she gets in addition to those he/she gets initially. Any DM who allows players to choose their own spells is asking for trouble.

I got this from every DM I played under. I managed to annoy them all though, sometimes they gave me what they think is an utterly useless spell, then they soon discover that in a matter of weeks I had completely broken it and made it one of the most powerful spells around

Sorcerers get a better deal with this in my games though, they get to choose what spells they swap, though I choose what they initially receive.

At the end of thing though, I don't think we are going to agree on this.

[Troile]

well of course you have to be careful what you specialize in and what you don't...

the truth of the matter is that the potential is definately there.

And I've always played that you get to pick your 2 spells per level. I mean those are your spells you get for going up in level...its pretty ridiculous to me that a DM would pick them for you.

Its kind of funny how we have totally different playing styles (not that yours is wrong mind you)

and I don't mean to come off being all derogatory I'm just well in an angry mood dealing with people in my personal life that really really suck.

[Wiccy of the Fraternity]

I do agree that specialisation is fun, but I just prefer a more general wizard when playing them.

If you have seen some of the stuff I have seen though for people choosing their own spells, you would think twice about letting players choose their own spells as well, lol. The terms of min-maxing and munchkinism don't quite cut it. Absolute Powermongering might though.

[Gonzoron of the FoS]

As for choosing what spells you receive, the only time you get to do that as a wizard in my games is when you create your character, at 1st level! If the wizard is created with more levels, I decide what spells he/she gets in addition to those he/she gets initially. Any DM who allows players to choose their own spells is asking for trouble.

I got this from every DM I played under.

Wow! That's a new one. In twenty years of D&D I've never heard of anyone doing this. Do you pick their skills and feats too?

[Troile]

I'm pretty much with gonzoron on this one.

I mean its pretty much the same thing as picking their feats and such...the spells need to be specific to the wizard.

I can see why you don't think sorcerers are underpowered if you don't play spcecialist wizards and you can't pick your own wizard spells.

with those 2 stipulations on the wizard the sorcerer would pwn him.

[Wiccy of the Fraternity]

Wow! That's a new one. In twenty years of D&D I've never heard of anyone doing this. Do you pick their skills and feats too?

Nope, just the spells, but I am not mean, I do give them spells they want, but I ration the more powerful ones so the party don't have access to the most destructive. For instance, I will give out a Power Word Kill on occasion, but a spell like Wish (which nearly every wizard I have DM'd seem to want) rarely appears. I am also likely to hand out spells that a player would not normally use, so they can have the chance to use them and find their worth. If a player wants a spell that I feel they do not need, I will ask them why, if they prove their argument and it isn't for the sake of trying to over balance things, then I will give it to them.

Thanks to that approach I have seen wizards come up with a very inventive use for Tasha's Uncontrollable Laughter. Use it on a werebeast in mid-transformation and see what happens

If a wizard is a specialist, they choose the spell from their specialist school, but I choose the spell from any other school.

Access to other spells is available in my games, they will find things to learn spells from, in about half of these situations there tend to be one or two spells they want specifically, so I am not overtly nasty to them.

[Ail]

You get 1 extra spell slot per level...that gives you so many more options for the spells you can take.

By being a general wizard you are denying yourself spells from other schools.

Nowhere does it say that the specialist wizard must learn a spell of her specialty every level.

I've just read the SRD 3.5 and you're right. It doesn't say he is limited. But I really was under the impression I had read it in the PHB 3.0. If so, they've corrected that and it's fine. Also iirc, the requirements for each specialist school were also differente, meaning that some schools forced the barring of a variable number of other specific schools. I remember this in 2nd Ed (though usually it was only the opposed school) and I guess it was so in 3.0 too? 3.5 is simply any two schools. That gives the specialist a bit more of leeway. Might actually get me interested in playing one of them. But then again, I'm a DM and not a player anymore, and I never had any qualms in making NPCs of any class, so.... I'm especially fond of Fighter / Sorc in Ravenloft
The prominent fighter that knows a few spells (Sor1 or Sor2) and with that rises to positions of power.

Ail

[Wiccy of the Fraternity]

Nowhere does it say that the specialist wizard must learn a spell of her specialty every level.

It says it here:

PHB 3.5 page 179 - "Each time a character attains a new wizard level, she gains two spells of her choice to add to her spellbook. These spells represent the results of her research. The two free spells must be of spell levels she can cast. If she has chosen to specialise in a school of magic, one of these two free spells must be from her speciality school."

Sorry, but it is there in the book, one of her spelsl gained form going up a level must come from the school she is specialised in.

I knew I had read that somewhere in the 3.5 PHB

[Troile]

ah you are right.

but at the same time it does say of her choice and not the DM's choice.

That weakens my argument a little...so 2 spells of each level must be from the chosen school...of course there are plenty of schools with plenty of good spells...

and wizards aren't limited to just the spells they gain each level.

I still think specializing is essential. You can't ignore the stupidly increased power of all those extra spells.

[Jason of the Fraternity]

I still think specializing is essential. You can't ignore the stupidly increased power of all those extra spells.

I don't know if I would say that specializing "stupidly increases" the power. Specialist wizards do gain the ability to cast one extra spell per spell level per day, but I don't think that you can say that it is that much of an increase. The fact that wizards can always create and use scrolls, wands, and other magic items overcomes the lack of unlimited spellcasting each day.

Plus, a general wizard can cast/use any spell or item. A specialist who is prohibited from use the evocation school, for example, couldn't use that wand of fireballs no matter how much he tried.

I'm not saying that the specialist is weaker by any means, but it seems that the specialist is less superior than what you would make it out to be. I guess I just don't see the extra spell per level being that much more powerful when the specialists bar themselves from using a number of other spells and items.

Again, just something to think about...