Café de Nuit

Never played paranoia. Anyways, I could kinda see that. Toben taking over a cult with 2 master's that share power or something like that. Toben A says you must always walk backward through doors no matter what! The other says the complete opposite or something impossible to do, so going back and forth between what they need to do confusing them. When you finally get both Toben A and B together and explain what they are demanding is impossible because what the other said they don't seem to see the problem. xD

alhoon wrote:We were past that till you two unearthed it.

Well, it is nice to have an official moderator opinion. Even if you agree or disagree with it, it definitely adds clarity to the discussion's parameters. Personally, I was also beginning to wonder how far we could take the discussion in that direction. I do have some ideas but I understand they're not to everybody's taste. Now that I know for sure, I can comply with forum rules - always a good thing.


Regarding Toben specifically:

A Toben vs. Azalin competition could be very interesting to see.

Azalin would have the benefit of arcane power and a much harder turning challenge. However, his available attention is very limited and the PCs (or Toben) would have to be REALLY messing things up to justify him taking a direct interest in proceedings.

Toben has neither arcane power nor any specially daunting turn challenges. However, he does have a lot more specialized attention he can pay to surroundings - and he arguably has even more geographical coverage than Azalin does. Azalin's power to control undead is completely null beyond the borders of Darkon. Even within Darkon, as we've mentioned, the GM can rule that he's distracted unless people really start "peeing in the rice cooker". Toben, on the other hand, can control bodies outside of Darkon and inside Darkon equally well - so long as he's careful that the majority of his bodies stays outside of Darkon AND he doesn't stir up too much trouble to attract Azalin's distracted attention.

This could be like a USA vs. Vietnam, superpower-vs.-guerrilla force type of conflict. Azalin has the equivalent of a nuclear bomb, but he's very distant and things have to get really out of hand before he'll bring his full attention on proceedings here. Toben is like a scrappy, delocalized fighting force with its headquarters safely beyond threat. He can be defeated time and time again, but he'll keep coming back if you let him.

It's the "one dog vs. many fleas" dilemma.

Not a bad idea. But I have a question: does Azalin even know of Toben the Many? If he does it's hard to believe the lich-king isn't interested in "acquring" him. A gestalt undead like that would be immensely useful. Order essentially one minion, get an entire army on the job. If he doesn't know about Toben, read my signature about money. ::cackles::

HuManBing wrote:Toben has neither arcane power nor any specially daunting turn challenges.

Since Toben is a template mechanics-wise, this isn't necessarily true. Granted, his 16 Int isn't impressive next to Azalins, but that raises a some interesting questions...

1. If a Toben zombie wears an item that enhances a mental ability score, does that apply to Toben's score? If so, does it apply to his score across all bodies?
2. How do Toben's multiple bodies factor magical item slots?

There are probably common sense elements that could limit the scope of this, but given his potential resources, this could conceivably be terrifying...

I don't see a way to let him do that without making him all powerful. I just imagine it is like trying to use a set of binoculars with twenty people at the same time. It is inefficient and does not give any bonus since it is divided between too many people. However if they let one of the group take hold of the binoculars they can see through them.

A way to go about it could be that Toben may have to focus on the one body affected by such in some fashion if that is possible and even then it is only for while he is focusing. It would be balanced in its flaws as realistically he might consider it for a short time such as skills, ability checks or such but to keep spell slots I think would seem like a waste to him most likely. Losing the majority of the effectiveness of your biggest advantage to gain some more spells higher than sixth level does not seem attractive.

I really think it would just apply to the one body for most effects and if distinctly physical and he would have to gather at least almost all of his focus on the equipped or affected body for mental buffs to affect the single body. Otherwise anchored to such a spread out mind I don't think it is unreasonable to think it could not function. Lower total bodies might help him but trading security of almost unending immortality for a +5 to Intelligence, Wisdom or Charisma would not be a great trade.

Of course having Toben get access to a MacGuffin that allows him to break this restriction for an effect could be a nice plot to build up to and a treasure he would want to keep of course. This seems more in line rather than making normal things power him up so because of the ease with which he could become a nigh unstoppable horde otherwise!

Even just letting one body profit from such an item would be hard to reason but not impossible. Mostly it is due to the fact that this single Toben is now different in the one thing that all other Tobens are not and this could lead to interesting developments for such a hive mind creature.

Being separate from the other Toben could make that body a target or simply be a dream come true for the one variant body while all the others share the jealous consciousness that hates the false escape of one of its kind.

Or imagine a Toben that separate from the rest becomes more insane or even becomes sane. Both could be a danger to the original hive mind it came from. Imagine the torture of a sane Toben having to face what it did as if from an individual stand point again! Perhaps even such sanity is not lasting or maybe that is what drives the new creature further into depravity!

Perhaps if increased through a wish or such the new body could make a better hive mind but cannot make such a better hive mind till it can destroy all the others in the original to start again? A sort of lopsided natural selection where the original hive mind is trying to wipe out the usurper who is only one against a legion.

Perhaps Toben zombies that separate even temporarily like this are destroyed or become regular if disturbing zombies and this is a weakness Toben does not want known?

Another weakness could be that spells that can give bonuses can allow the victims of the affected bodies minds to reemerge for a time to resist the collective. This could lead some to try and keep their former friends from Toben if resurrection is not an option. Toben may or may not still be connected to this now separate zombie and they may still spread the original Toben through it's victims and disease aura. Of course this could lead to some sort of way to use the victim/zombie to get into Toben's own consciousness and find out what he knows. Perhaps a way into his deepest secrets or things even he has forgotten. Of course the victim could still suffer knowing such knowledge or what Toben is doing since they may still be connected to the memories or flashes of insight while awake or if for some reason they have to sleep then while dreaming. If they still as undead feel the need to sleep they may also lose control then and have to fight to get it back. This could even bring Toben into conflict with the Nightmare Court as he does not have to sleep normally or such. Some of these could even be a lingering effect of someone resurrected from being a Toben zombie on a separate note!

But yeah just some ideas cause that sparked my own mind for a second! Now if you will excuse me... I get the feeling that my other selves might be coming so I need to try and flee!

A G Thing wrote:It would be balanced in its flaws as realistically he might consider it for a short time such as skills, ability checks or such but to keep spell slots I think would seem like a waste to him most likely. Losing the majority of the effectiveness of your biggest advantage to gain some more spells higher than sixth level does not seem attractive.

The spell slots wouldn't be very cost effective, but it could allow him to activate a higher level scroll.

A G Thing wrote:Of course having Toben get access to a MacGuffin that allows him to break this restriction for an effect could be a nice plot to build up to and a treasure he would want to keep of course. This seems more in line rather than making normal things power him up so because of the ease with which he could become a nigh unstoppable horde otherwise!

The threat of the possibility of Toben managing to boost himself infinitely would, I think, be terrifying all on its own, and an excellent "high stakes" motivator for a quest.

A G Thing wrote:Even just letting one body profit from such an item would be hard to reason but not impossible. Mostly it is due to the fact that this single Toben is now different in the one thing that all other Tobens are not and this could lead to interesting developments for such a hive mind creature.

Unrelated to Ravenloft: I once wrote a story that was more or less this...

Related back to Ravenloft: The plot of that story could make for an interesting event. Imagine one zombie is cut off from the rest somehow. Now, if I remember correctly Toben has the memories of the bodies he inhabits, at least while he inhabits them, and this body has Toben's memories...and the memory of just one person. Maybe those memories are clear enough compared to the formless sea of memories the greater hive possesses that the vessel's memories have a chance to become dominant. This isn't Toben in a struggle against the mind of the person whose body he stole, that person's dead. No, this a Toben who knows he's Toben, but driven by foreign memories that are suddenly clear enough to actually matter.

In other words, Toben is the one who has been infected.

A G Thing wrote:Some of these could even be a lingering effect of someone resurrected from being a Toben zombie on a separate note!

I love the idea of a partial connection to the Toben hive mind, it reminds me of the movie Slither. It would also almost definitely call for Horror saves at least nightly.

Another idea for some of these effects... What if someone, perhaps some misguided Lamordian scientist (no one in particular, though if you think about it...) tried to develop an attenuated vaccine for the grinning sickness? How many ways could that go horribly wrong?

Two ideas.

One. Re: Azalin and Toben. An intersting scenario to play would be for Azalin's attempts to control Toben go awry and for them to literally swap bodies. Now Toben is trapped in Azalin's body (with his powers and authority) and Azalin is lost in Toben's existence with Toben's powers. They each attempt to make this work for them and hijinks ensue. At the end of the end, both are staring at each other saying, 'WHAT THE HELL WERE WE THINKING?!!'

Two: What could be done between Toben and Tristessa.

Toben's suddenly on the throne of the largest domain in Ravenloft and he has the ability to rewrite people's memories and control any undead there he wants?

Dude...the word "hijinks" is completely inadequate.

To Hazgarn

Good insights on my post! I still think Toben becoming too powerful is a problem but I also agree that if done right it could become a great climax to an arc of a campaign... And putting the separate back into the collective as a sort of virus against Toben is a good twist as well! The DM crunch and fluff of this character always seems to bring out possibilities! Yes... Lots of... Possibilities!!!

Also to agree with Hazgarn...

And yep... If he ever got a hold on Azalin's body and powers including altering memories and controlling all the undead of the domain... Well I think you would end up with Darkon as the equivalent of the largest insane asylum in all of Ravenloft history! Everyone would be Toben or some crazed toy of Toben without the whole hive mind thing going on and they would be destroying each other most likely. I don't know if Toben could control himself enough to continue to leave any victims for him to torment? If it lasted longer than a year I am sure the place would be unlivable for any that had been not yet changed or could somehow avoid such control. Soon after I see the domain crumbling beyond all possibility for repair! Though for a short time if it could be managed I could see Azalin working to get it back as a good plot point for a game!

A G Thing wrote:Though for a short time if it could be managed I could see Azalin working to get it back as a good plot point for a game!

But isn't one of Azalin's main motivations finding some way to escape Ravenloft? If their places are well and truly swapped, then Toben's saddled with darklord status (*shudder*), and true to hive-plague form Azalin is free to roam the realms. Which is basically half the battle. And now, Azalin can theoretically split his attention infinitely between all the realms searching for a means of escape without having to work through a bunch of minions.

Well... I can't say I like that level of "responsibility" for Toben. Not every cool villain HAS to be a darklord after all, nor they have to influence the demiplane that deeply.

As I said, being for a couple of hours the local priest or village mayor sounds OK, but more than that and I think Toben would lose his interest.

As of him having a "few bodies in Darkon", I prefer playing Toben more or less as written in that regard, I.e. that being sent to Darkon is his greatest fear.

Hazgarn wrote:

A G Thing wrote:Though for a short time if it could be managed I could see Azalin working to get it back as a good plot point for a game!

But isn't one of Azalin's main motivations finding some way to escape Ravenloft? If their places are well and truly swapped, then Toben's saddled with darklord status (*shudder*), and true to hive-plague form Azalin is free to roam the realms. Which is basically half the battle. And now, Azalin can theoretically split his attention infinitely between all the realms searching for a means of escape without having to work through a bunch of minions.

I am sure if the Dark Powers are going to let these two trade their forms that neither one of them are going to get what they really want from the deal and may regret it... I don't see any reason why a DM would just give Azalin a get out of Ravenloft free card unless he really does not like him...

And who does not like Azalin?

alhoon wrote:Well... I can't say I like that level of "responsibility" for Toben. Not every cool villain HAS to be a darklord after all, nor they have to influence the demiplane that deeply.

As I said, being for a couple of hours the local priest or village mayor sounds OK, but more than that and I think Toben would lose his interest.

As of him having a "few bodies in Darkon", I prefer playing Toben more or less as written in that regard, I.e. that being sent to Darkon is his greatest fear.

I agree... Which is why if I ever did it I would only make it a temporary situation at best... Just how I see it. Also while Toben may fear coming to Darkon it could be a fluke in Azalins failed control attempt without using the majority of bodies thing. I see this a negative for both of them where Toben is locked in a much more boring play box where he cannot engineer his plots as perfectly and Azalin realizes that something fundamental has gone so wrong it leaves him no choice but to take back his domain. Azalin may be trying to make it so he still comes out ahead while Toben is trying to destroy as much as possible in a roller coaster of moods and desires ranging from anger to boredom and fueled by chaotic plans or complex schemes or anywhere in between. Toben may also not be strong enough to hold the domain and Death may make a power play as the whole thing spirals out of control. Could be an excellent climax to a game if done right!

^last comment inspired this....

The party sent out to find a wanted man, (toben) and they find the man has been zombified and they need to take them back to Darkon in order to collect the reward. Be the first zombie they'd ever see to plea for their life not to be taken to Darkon. As for why use obscure things such as "he" or "him" or "He who must not be named", the "Ruler in the Dark" ect.

A G Thing wrote:I am sure if the Dark Powers are going to let these two trade their forms that neither one of them are going to get what they really want from the deal and may regret it... I don't see any reason why a DM would just give Azalin a get out of Ravenloft free card unless he really does not like him...

And who does not like Azalin?

I just meant that the situation would have to be a little more complicated than a simple switch for Azalin to have the motivation to try and get Darkon back. There are a lot of ways to play with it.

Zilfer wrote:^last comment inspired this....

The party sent out to find a wanted man, (toben) and they find the man has been zombified and they need to take them back to Darkon in order to collect the reward. Be the first zombie they'd ever see to plea for their life not to be taken to Darkon. As for why use obscure things such as "he" or "him" or "He who must not be named", the "Ruler in the Dark" ect.

Well nice to know it inspired you a bit... I hope you meant me! It is a nice little hook that could be built upon!


To Hazgarn

Sorry if I came off confrontational...

But apparently we are both in agreement though, since I don't know exactly how I would make Azalin want Darkon back either!