Reaction to WotC announcements re: Vistani (Drow, orcs, etc.

[Five]

Anybody with half a brain will see things for what they are and not judge the Ravenloft player base because a douchebag like me sound thoughts out on a messageboard. Speaking for myself, an INTP personality type (validated for whatever worth that has to any of you), who sometimes outwardly debates my own thoughts and opinions as opposed to those whom I am talking to, everything I say is on me and squarely on me. I am self aware and own all of it. And I'm not embarrassed by it at all. If people don't like what I'm saying then they'll ignore me. Like they sometimes, rightfully, do haha.

Others have just as equal rights to do the same; be who they are and say their say. If we cross the line by straying from the topic at hand and into sketchy areas (do any of us really do it on purpose?) then we'll be told by the brass and (hopefully) reflect on our jive.

Right now Ravenloft fans are voicing their opinions over actions taken by the new keepers of their game. Let them. Let it all out. Point the finger, curse them (generally), say words of praise, whatever man. It's all good as long as people don't get personally abusive with each other.

Wizards, in my no-name opinion (I call myself "five" here for christssake!), IS going off half-cocked. They seem caught off-guard and scrambling to keep the heat down. In their fear of getting singled out they have singled themselves out. They got played (maybe even by themselves). Now, that's not to say that all hope for the game is lost. It's not. 5E is a great product. A great game that they should stay focused on and not play PC pattycake with internet trolls and shitmouthed bloggers. Like they apparently did. And by the looks of their response they executed abysmally. See rant above about fantasy/reality and business ethics. But that's just MY read of the situation. If I'm wrong then I'll eat foot. Cest la vie.

But yes, I said all that before.

Mischief: I agree that this thread went sideways. And I was a part of it. I won't apologise for my words, but I will apologise for the part I played in ruining your intended discussion. I am sorry for that. I'm horrible for doing that as often as I do, which is never my intention. For any of you.

Anyway, I'm worded out.

[Five]

Second thought: has 2E just become the incidental "R rating" for Wizards? Humour: Kinda feeling like I need to settle back into it now, like I don't belong in 5E. Haha

Wait until they reach back before 2E and discover the Monster Manual for 1E.

Gynosphinx nipples!

Haha

Shh!

[ewancummins]

I have three copies.

I gave one to my five-year old son.

He is particularly fond of the thought eater, the leprechauns, all the dinosaurs, the displacer beast, and his all time favorite-- the MIMIC.
He hates the vampire, so we skip that page.

[tomokaicho]

Confession time: I am a real life trans-racial Orc. [REDACTED BY MODERATOR: "GRANDMA RULE"]

Also I have The Sight of the Vistani without their high crime rate.

[Five]

I have three copies.

I gave one to my five-year old son.

He is particularly fond of the thought eater, the leprechauns, all the dinosaurs, the displacer beast, and his all time favorite-- the MIMIC.
He hates the vampire, so we skip that page.

Haha awesome!

Why the Mimic?

I showed my 10 year old a D&D mimic after I saw him battling one in Fortnite (save the world I believe it was). He just said "cool", in that whatever kinda way. Haha

[Five]

Confession time: I am a real life trans-racial Orc. [REDACTED BY MODERATOR: "GRANDMA RULE"]
Also I have The Sight of the Vistani without their high crime rate.

So, if my D&D code is up to date, you identify as an indigenous traveller but are planning on settling down...I got that right?

[Five]

Did it again...

I'll save this spot for a future post that actually is related to the topic. Least I can do.

Could Icewind Dale: Rime of the Frostmaiden perhaps feature Vistani?

I thought I read that one of the devs (Perkins?) mentioned something like "If you liked CoS then you're going to love the next project I'm working on". And with the horror hype that is attached to Icewind Dale, could the Vistani/a Vistani be our Crypt Keeper for 5E?

[Gonzoron of the FoS]

I'll agree that this thread went way afield from the original intended topic. I'm still not going to lock it, in case anyone still wants to "debate" Wizards and their diversity and inclusion steps, though as I said before, I don't think any minds are being changed in either direction. Conversations do drift, and that's normal. In this case, we've drifted into an obvious hot button area, so what I will do is spin off a new thread to discuss the original topic and edit the title of this one for clarity.

Again, whatever my personal thoughts, in an official capacity, we aren't censoring debate here as long as it stays civil and there are no personal attacks or other violations of our rules. If you see such a violation, as always feel free to report it privately.

[ewancummins]

I'll agree that this thread went way afield from the original intended topic. I'm still not going to lock it, in case anyone still wants to "debate" Wizards and their diversity and inclusion steps, though as I said before, I don't think any minds are being changed in either direction. Conversations do drift, and that's normal. In this case, we've drifted into an obvious hot button area, so what I will do is spin off a new thread to discuss the original topic and edit the title of this one for clarity.

Again, whatever my personal thoughts, in an official capacity, we aren't censoring debate here as long as it stays civil and there are no personal attacks or other violations of our rules. If you see such a violation, as always feel free to report it privately.

Bravo!

This is moderation done right.

[ewancummins]

I have three copies.

I gave one to my five-year old son.

He is particularly fond of the thought eater, the leprechauns, all the dinosaurs, the displacer beast, and his all time favorite-- the MIMIC.
He hates the vampire, so we skip that page.

Haha awesome!

Why the Mimic?

I showed my 10 year old a D&D mimic after I saw him battling one in Fortnite (save the world I believe it was). He just said "cool", in that whatever kinda way. Haha

I have three copies.

I gave one to my five-year old son.

He is particularly fond of the thought eater, the leprechauns, all the dinosaurs, the displacer beast, and his all time favorite-- the MIMIC.
He hates the vampire, so we skip that page.

Haha awesome!

Why the Mimic?

I showed my 10 year old a D&D mimic after I saw him battling one in Fortnite (save the world I believe it was). He just said "cool", in that whatever kinda way. Haha

I think what hooked him was the cartoony (Sutherland?) picture of the mimic-as-sucker-punching-treasure-chest.

He draws and tells stories about mimics of various sorts. Toilet mimic, fridge mimic, chair mimic, book mimic, etc.


It's time for a Ravenloft mimics, animated objects, and other disguised/surprise monsters thread.

RE Orcs:

It's a question of game design. What role do orcs principally fill in the game?

Are they monsters that exist primarily to serve as easily-identifiable opposition/threats and sources of loot for the PCs? Being evil, nobody needs to feel too broken up over kicking in the dungeon door and killing them all. Jack their stuff (which they surely stole in the first place). They're the baddies.

Or are orcs people? Potential henchmen? PCs?

I think you have to make up your mind what orcs are and why they are even part of the setting/game. If they are evil monsters, let them be evil monsters. If they are non-evil pig-men, let them be non-evil pig-men.

I do note that one of the PC's in Gygax's game had an orc henchman. Of course, Lord Robilar was Lawful Evil, wasn't he? That gets into long-running questions about evil PCs and the role of moral/alignment conflicts in the game.
Are we here to defeat evil or just to collect loot and XP?
Both?

Half-orcs have been a playable race in various editions.


These same considerations apply to the drow, first presented as a playable option in UA.
But it still raises questions about how they fit into the game.

[Five]

And orcs have been a playable race, with a full-bodied culture, since BECMI's "The Orcs of Thar" gazetteer. Which was written, what, late 80's? As well as 2E's "Complete Book of Humanoids", as well as the book "Player's Option: Skills and Powers".

So we've had the option to flip them for at least 30 years now...

[Five]

I think what hooked him was the cartoony (Sutherland?) picture of the mimic-as-sucker-punching-treasure-chest.

He draws and tells stories about mimics of various sorts. Toilet mimic, fridge mimic, chair mimic, book mimic, etc.

Deadly! Then tell him to keep at it. Lord knows we could use some cool, new thought/visuals of monster classics like that!

Art challenge!

Clubby the Mimic and Phase the displacer beast want to play a fun prank on their friend Giggles the leprechaun as he sits and counts his gold coins in his house. They're hiding right now so he can't see them...and they JUMP out to surprise him!

What does the surprise look like?

ewancummins, don't mind me... Haha

[ewancummins]

And orcs have been a playable race, with a full-bodied culture, since BECMI's "The Orcs of Thar" gazetteer. Which was written, what, late 80's? As well as 2E's "Complete Book of Humanoids", as well as the book "Player's Option: Skills and Powers".

So we've had the option to flip them for at least 30 years now...

The Orcs of Thar does a nice job of presenting the orcs and other goblinoids in a humorous, sympathetic, yet still evil/monstrous way.

The basic assumption in Orcs of Thar is that you can use the new races in an all-monsters 'we're the baddies' game. Not that you can't mix them up with the standard races, but the milieu as published works against mixed monster/player race parties in most parts of the setting.

One thing about BECMI (and Classic, B/X, and the original game) is that there are only three alignments. Lawful is default good guy alignment and Chaotic is the default bad guy alignment, but Chaotic isn't always evil.

[Five]

The Orcs of Thar does a nice job of presenting the orcs and other goblinoids in a humorous, sympathetic, yet still evil/monstrous way.

The basic assumption in Orcs of Thar is that you can use the new races in an all-monsters 'we're the baddies' game. Not that you can't mix them up with the standard races, but the milieu as published works against mixed monster/player race parties in most parts of the setting.

This is true. Fringe products aside, if I can call them that, support for non-goodly races PCs wasn't great. Really had to make the circle fit the square. Dragonlance, Kaz-esque Minotaurs being a particular dividing line as I recall. At least, at our table. We all opted to let it go and the PC, a thief/mage if I remember right, was a more than welcome blast.

One thing about BECMI (and Classic, B/X, and the original game) is that there are only three alignments. Lawful is default good guy alignment and Chaotic is the default bad guy alignment, but Chaotic isn't always evil.

Yeah, sometimes simpler was more fun. Few rolls, some scratches, and bam!, into adventure.

[ewancummins]

RE The Vistani

The gypsies in the original module were not called Vistani, but were later identified as such.
They are evil (NE) which makes perfect sense, as they are minions of Strahd. They are thus aligned with Evil.


The Vistani as developed in the Ravenloft campaign setting are an NPC group with powers of divination, cursing, and mist travelling--three things that are limited for the PCs and most others--and are on the whole a rather mysterious people. They can be sources of information, enemies, allies, or a colorful background element.

VRGtotV dispels a lot of the mystery, which is unfortunate but surely unavoidable for such a product. It fleshes out the Vistani culture and provides playable options for Vistani PCs.


In another old thread, I suggested that the Barovian gypsies could be separated from Vistani if one wished. They might be a clan of inbred Borjians who drink vampire blood to prolong their lives. Maybe Madame Eva can tell fortunes with a deck of playing cards, but this could be a special power, limited to Barovia.
And if a Vistani link is needed, make her a half-Vistani or a darkling.

In this setup, true Vistani would likely despise the Barovian gypsies.

There could still be villainous Vistani, such as the ones who kidnapped VR's son for Baron Metus.