Café de Nuit

And as the Book of Exalted Deeds define good and evil, the cause doesn't justify the means.

Even if their families are tortured and killed, the spirits will be free and drift to a happy afterlife. The good/evil balance doesn't change. If the PCs in their haste to do the good thing, "crack some eggs" they are doing more evil. Selling one's soul IMO is sacrifice, but not a good act.
Suppose they succeed and save the families. At what cost? Their very souls (evil wins).
Suppose they accepted their fate and became executed (justly I may also say, they killed people). Their families are killed and all are united in the afterlife (no body wins. Neither good nor evil)
Also why they killed the people in the mines? It isn't clear. Are you sure your players haven't turned to be like those they hunt? If the people in the mines were "just in their way" so to speak, your PCs have done the same thing they fight against. Many wives and children will cry over their husbands and fathers because these fathers made a bad decision, to not let the interloppers pass.

Also remember that if those that keep the families kill them, Justice will come up to them. Soon (powerchecks, antagonists, other heroes, betrayal) or in the afterlife.
By killing people and selling their souls the PCs seem to haughtily place themselves above Justice. "I'm the only one that can save my family/ I'm the only one that can punish that monster/ I'm too important to be killed for murdering people right now, so I find an easy way out".

PS. Book of Exalted Deeds is an interesting book. While the Prestige classes are strange, there are some good feats in there and a very nice description of good/evil as concepts and how to be treated in game. I don't know why it is mentioned so rarely. BoVD is mentioned often.

All very good points there - thanks all.

But Alhoon, you've prompted me to comment on your reply.

As a quick bit of background...

The game revolves around the conuest of Gundarak. The PCs were from a tiny, remote village in the south of the domain, chiefly founded by Forfarian refugees some hundred and fifty years before hand. These refugees had come by way of Barovia, where one of them had the misfortune to be an incarnation of Tatyana. IMC, Tatyana was noted for her red hair. The Forfarian refugees are also all descended from a powerful fae, and the Red-Head feat - with Cure Light Wounds - is quite common amongst them. This is one reason they live so far from anyone else.

The game started with the Barovian invasion, and with the PCs being the only members of the village not enslaved by the Barovian forces. Strahd had given orders that all the fifty inhabitants were to be brought to him, both to find Tatyana and as he is curious about their strange talents. Upon reaching Vallaki, he seperated out the populace, sending all the youngest girls to a Halan orphanage in case any of them grow up to be his love, taking the red-heads back to Ravenloft, and putting the rest to work as slaves across the country. The PCs have now spent ten months tracking their families, and have rescued a few.

The incident in question came when they discovered that a half-dozen of their menfolk had been sent to a mine in Mt. Ghakis. They hoped to sneak in and rescue their fellows without getting spotted, but were cought and jumped by some of the guards. They fought back, and eventually ended up killing miners as the event escallated, miners whose only crime had been defending themselves. They were eventually overpowered. For the slaughter, I did make Powers Checks - it was not intentional so I didn't make it an Act of Ultimate Darkness. No-one failed this check.

In light of the above;

alhoon wrote:Even if their families are tortured and killed, the spirits will be free and drift to a happy afterlife. The good/evil balance doesn't change. If the PCs in their haste to do the good thing, "crack some eggs" they are doing more evil. Selling one's soul IMO is sacrifice, but not a good act.
Suppose they succeed and save the families. At what cost? Their very souls (evil wins). Suppose they accepted their fate and became executed (justly I may also say, they killed people). Their families are killed and all are united in the afterlife (no body wins. Neither good nor evil)

I really have to disagree with this, on two levels.

Firstly, your comment on evil winning if they succeed and save the families, but loose their souls. True, evil - in the shape of Inajira - gets a few more souls, but the innocent members of their village - including children - are rescued from a lifetime of slavery and given another chance. In the case of the infant girls - which includes one of the PCs daughters - they may be rescued from Strahd himself. If I had said that the PCs gave up their own lives to accomplish this goal, no-one would be arguing that it was a noble thing to do. But rather than saying that they are sacrificing their lives for their families, they are saying that they will willingly suffer for eternity just to see them free. I agree that this is not a good thing, but how can it in itself consititute a victory for evil?

Now, I agree that they're pushing the boundry on the end justifying the means, and this is something I plan to use as a theme later. But I don't think that they have yet gone too far with it.

alhoon wrote:Also why they killed the people in the mines? It isn't clear. Are you sure your players haven't turned to be like those they hunt? If the people in the mines were "just in their way" so to speak, your PCs have done the same thing they fight against. Many wives and children will cry over their husbands and fathers because these fathers made a bad decision, to not let the interloppers pass.

I agree, but this was covered in the initial Powers Check I made after the combat. It has no bearing on their pact with Inajira, mechanically.

alhoon wrote:Also remember that if those that keep the families kill them, Justice will come up to them. Soon (powerchecks, antagonists, other heroes, betrayal) or in the afterlife.

Which the PCs do not know. They have seen the Barovians, and their foul Von Zarovich leaders, literally get away with murder time after time in the siege of Gundarak. They have no reason to believe that there is any sense of cosmic justice.

And even if they did, in order for it to come to pass their families have to live a life of slavery or die. And the PCs who made the pact are as religious as any Gundarakite or Barovian - they believe in what they can see and hear. "He's gone to Heaven" is not a phrase that would console any of them.

alhoon wrote:By killing people and selling their souls the PCs seem to haughtily place themselves above Justice. "I'm the only one that can save my family/ I'm the only one that can punish that monster/ I'm too important to be killed for murdering people right now, so I find an easy way out".

Except in this case it really can be said that they are the only ones who can save them. And the justice in question is the justice of a country who has slaughtered their people, and which has treated them as scum ever since they set foot in it. One of the PCs has already been brutally beaten by the town guard when he tried to report a robbery to them, simply because he spoke back when told to f*ck off. As far as they can see, there is no justice in Barovia.

That said, the idea that they can again become what they hate is certainly going to feature, and one of the PCs is certainly on that route - the one who showed no remorse for the slaughter, using the line "They're only Barovians". As I mentioned above, this was enough for me to push his alignment from Neutral to Evil, and he did have to make the Powers Check for his deal with Inajira, which he accepted for the strength the arcanaloth offered him.

alhoon wrote:PS. Book of Exalted Deeds is an interesting book. While the Prestige classes are strange, there are some good feats in there and a very nice description of good/evil as concepts and how to be treated in game. I don't know why it is mentioned so rarely. BoVD is mentioned often.

I've read Exalted Deeds. I was amazed that I found nothing I could use in it - no prestige classes, no monsters, no moral ideas that I agreed with at all. Even Vile Darkness have mechanics I could find use for.

Bloody Morgan

If there's anything that truly separates the Good from the Evil, it's that the Good have faith that you don't have to morally demean yourself to succeed. A Good character who sells his or her soul "for the greater good" isn't actually being Good, because they're abandoning the very notion that Good *can* prevail without resorting to Evil's methods! The Dark Powers aren't just interested in Evil for its own sake; they're very much concerned with _the corruption of the Good_. If the PCs are willing to sacrifice their own souls in order to exploit an Evil creature's power for their families' benefit, how is that Good? They're essentially saying "Good can't succeed on its own; it has to buy favors from Evil to accomplish its ends". And if they'll do that once, the DPs can probably count on them to do so again ... hence, even the Good PCs get to make Powers checks, which give them precisely that opportunity.

Besides, who's to say that the PCs' sacrifice won't cause more harm than it prevents? Once their souls are in Inajira's clutches, they may become so corrupt over the eons (and *eternity* is a VERY long time) that each of them becomes a fiend as wicked and destructive as the arcanaloth, itself. If that happens, they'll do things so vile and horrific, it'll make enslaving a single village look like children's pranks. And they'll keep on doing them FOREVER, barring their permanent destruction by heroes with the faith *not* to surrender to temptation and despair.

Never forget, even Strahd's own personal corruption started out with an offer of military aid from Inajira, an offer he accepted "for the greater good". Who's to say it wasn't *that* event from his past, however well-meant, that actually convinced the Dark Powers he might accept their own bargain, in the first place...?

The incident in question came when they discovered that a half-dozen of their menfolk had been sent to a mine in Mt. Ghakis. They hoped to sneak in and rescue their fellows without getting spotted, but were cought and jumped by some of the guards. They fought back, and eventually ended up killing miners as the event escallated, miners whose only crime had been defending themselves. They were eventually overpowered. For the slaughter, I did make Powers Checks - it was not intentional so I didn't make it an Act of Ultimate Darkness. No-one failed this check.

The check should still have been pretty high. They could have done non-leathal/subdual damage, after all.

Rotipher wrote:If there's anything that truly separates the Good from the Evil, it's that the Good have faith that you don't have to morally demean yourself to succeed. A Good character who sells his or her soul "for the greater good" isn't actually being Good, because they're abandoning the very notion that Good *can* prevail without resorting to Evil's methods! The Dark Powers aren't just interested in Evil for its own sake; they're very much concerned with _the corruption of the Good_. If the PCs are willing to sacrifice their own souls in order to exploit an Evil creature's power for their families' benefit, how is that Good? They're essentially saying "Good can't succeed on its own; it has to buy favors from Evil to accomplish its ends". And if they'll do that once, the DPs can probably count on them to do so again ... hence, even the Good PCs get to make Powers checks, which give them precisely that opportunity.

...

Never forget, even Strahd's own personal corruption started out with an offer of military aid from Inajira, an offer he accepted "for the greater good". Who's to say it wasn't *that* event from his past, however well-meant, that actually convinced the Dark Powers he might accept their own bargain, in the first place...?

That's a very, very good point. Well laid out too. May well rethink this.

Tobias Blackburn wrote:The check should still have been pretty high. They could have done non-leathal/subdual damage, after all.

Which had escaped my mind totally. Ok, will be reconsidering this too.

Thanks all. This is why I keep coming back here.

Morrigan

I just want to add that this is one of the most deep discussions I had about Ravenloft.
A question of morals and means, definitions of good and evil. . .

Bloody Morgan while I disagree with you on the matter of morals (I mostly agree with Book of Exalted Deeds in what's good, except the violence thing ) I recognise that The PCs are not saints.

Who can blame the PCs for hating the Barovians? In fact, if I was in their place I would hate Barovians too, perhaps in the point of blinding myself to what's good and what not so much. I doupt that if I was playing anything else except a paladin I would delve in such debates of "is it good to kill this Barovian B@$tard (that his kin torments me for no reason) to save my little daughter?"

Who can be so sure for himself and his morals that could argue that if he really was a powerfull warrior that has seen "justice" only by the end of his sword, that has been treated like this by Barovians and when they have given him such a sorrow would act differently?
How many soldiers have turned to monsters by war?

Well, the Dark Powers don't care if the PCs have excuses. They killed innocents, so they may take the "gift". If I was a judge, I would be lenient on them. But if I was playing the unknown and unforgiving entities of Ravenloft, I would have them automatically lose a power check.

However, on the matter of Inajira, it was pure madness IMO. Yet, the PCs would probably be rather desperate. "The bastards will Kill us! Who's to save our families?" is enough to put a man to pure mad scemes.

alhoon wrote:I just want to add that this is one of the most deep discussions I had about Ravenloft.
A question of morals and means, definitions of good and evil. . .

Bloody Morgan while I disagree with you on the matter of morals (I mostly agree with Book of Exalted Deeds in what's good, except the violence thing ) I recognise that The PCs are not saints.

As a quick aside, I'd like to point out that what I'm arguing here is not entirely my own moral beliefs, they are as you say the beliefs of the PCs. Also, about the Book of Exalted Deeds - when I say I found it useless I mean that I found it useless as a resource from my games, not that I disagree with what is presented in it on a moral level.

That said...

alhoon wrote:Well, the Dark Powers don't care if the PCs have excuses. They killed innocents, so they may take the "gift". If I was a judge, I would be lenient on them. But if I was playing the unknown and unforgiving entities of Ravenloft, I would have them automatically lose a power check.

This is another good point. In light of Tobias Blackburn's above comment about subdual damage, I think I'm going to redo this Power's Check. As I think that the players forgot about subdual damage as much as I did I'm not going to have them automatically fail, but I'm certainly going to give them a far higher chance than I had previously.

alhoon wrote:However, on the matter of Inajira, it was pure madness IMO. Yet, the PCs would probably be rather desperate. "The bastards will Kill us! Who's to save our families?" is enough to put a man to pure mad scemes.

It was a very fun piece to run. All the PCs bar one were in jail - one other was running around in the woods trying to find a way to rescue them. They were so out of ideas that two of them actually started praying, despite having no faith to speak of. One of them appealed to Ezra, as he knew the prayers, having pretended to be one of the faithful in an earlier game session. The second - the one who turned to Evil - prayed to Erlin. The other PCs responded suitably to this. But to see the desperation... it was a good game.

To add the final irony to it, of course, the one free PC managed to find a Witch of Hala who could Raise Dead, and had secured a method of stealing his fellow's bodies and getting them to her. And he did so, only to find them waking of their own accord just as they started the ritual. It was another good moment, with himself and the Halan NPC reacting with horror, and the PCs screaming when the realised that they had sacrificed themselves needlessly.

Bloody Morgan,
Who is greatly enjoying this discussion.

Bloody Morgan wrote:
As a quick aside, I'd like to point out that what I'm arguing here is not entirely my own moral beliefs, they are as you say the beliefs of the PCs. Also, about the Book of Exalted Deeds - when I say I found it useless I mean that I found it useless as a resource from my games, not that I disagree with what is presented in it on a moral level.

As I have said, I don't expect the PCs to be saints after all. Perhaps I would expect a paladin to act "saintly" but for others . . .

Also a great Bravo for you for:
- Coming up with too solutions. One Evil and easy and one good and hard. The PCs could very well have decided that their soul isn't a commodity to be traded and still, all wasn't lost. They would come back at a cost of 1 level.
- Being able to bring forth something so touching and believable. I'm sure that this is an adventure your players will remember for many years. I believe that some of this was planned and some improvised on the way. So, you are creative and adaptable as a DM.

alhoon wrote:Also a great Bravo for you for:
- Coming up with too solutions. One Evil and easy and one good and hard. The PCs could very well have decided that their soul isn't a commodity to be traded and still, all wasn't lost. They would come back at a cost of 1 level.
- Being able to bring forth something so touching and believable. I'm sure that this is an adventure your players will remember for many years. I believe that some of this was planned and some improvised on the way. So, you are creative and adaptable as a DM.

Thank you Alhoon, I'm flattered. The Halan option was only one other option; there was also a necromancer who could have been bribed to raise them (again foul), if more had escaped from the initial group then there could have been a jail break, the judge could have been bribed... I get most of my fun as a gm just making a setting an seeing what the PCs try. The PC who found the Cleric also tried the Vistani, as he had heard they could go places no-one else could and thought there was a chance this could include jails.. it didn't, of course, but it was such a novel idea.

Thanks again all. I'll be sure to come back if I have any more head-scratchers.

Bloody Morgan

I do the same thing as you. I run the world and the PCs interact with it.

PS. It is alhoon, not Alhoon.

alhoon wrote:PS. It is alhoon, not Alhoon.

Noted