Café de Nuit

Gemathustra wrote:As far as I know, I have yet to see any official statement or announcement that states, or stated, that the line for Ravenloft products is to be stopped, whether from the Dark Duo, White Wolf, Wizards of the Coast, Sorcerors in the Bay, Mr Mangrum, the rest of the Kargatane, Steve Miller, or anyone else who is QUALIFIED to make such a statement or announcement.

Just as a reminder, I haven't been involved with Arthaus in any way since the end of 2003, so I truly don't belong on a list of people "qualified" to make announcements about its current goings-on.

Nonetheless, Gemathustra's got a point. Where has it been said that the line is dead? It hasn't, and those qualified to tell us don't appear to be doing so.

That said, the release calendar does look rather sparse. If the Gazetteers are to be discontinued (BIG mistake), then what else is there to release? Some of the ideas pitched earlier were quite good, such as the book on detective methods & equipment, but short of a VRA Vol. 2, I don't see this happening anytime soon.

I would like to know why WW/S&S/Arthaus is not supporting the Ravenloft line better in 2005. I do not have Dark Tales & Disturbing Legends yet, 5 weeks after it was released. None of the online discount distributors have it yet (Amazon.com, Barnes & Noble.com, even Walmart.com all still show it as 'not yet released'). I asked over on S&S's boards if they are only releasing this one on WW's Online Store, but have not received a response in two weeks. I sent a email to WW asking the same question and received a prompt reply from Conrad Hubbard that he would forward this to the sales department. That was a week ago, I've heard nothing since and nothing has yet changed. I have had this on 'pre-order' on Amazon for months (bought through Mr. Miller's links so he would get a cut), but I am wondering if I will ever get it. I have no local gamestore where I could buy it, and I'm not interested in the download version from DrivethruRPG.com, I'll be cancelling my Amazon order soon if I don't hear anything on it. What has changed in 2005? I ordered Legacies of Blood last Christmastime from Amazon and received it right away.

I don't think that Ravenloft will die.

Personally, I have all the material I need to run my camapigns. Though I do use second edition material for reference... It would be nice to see some revamped adventures, though I'm quite capable of making them work for me anyway.

And Mangrum is of course, totally right about Denizens, totally attrocious. I only used the book for one thing in my campaigns so far - dread flesh golems, and where was the bonus hit points? There was heaps of stuff missing. But I guess, at least I'm very familiar now with the system for creating monsters, so they're easy to patch up...

Sounds like we may have a scape goat with this Kelly Jester person... Off with his/her head!

Mangrum wrote:
Just as a reminder, I haven't been involved with Arthaus in any way since the end of 2003, so I truly don't belong on a list of people "qualified" to make announcements about its current goings-on.

Meh.
I wouldn't put it past a disembodied brain in a jar to be a part of the local grapevines.

Tobias Blackburn wrote:That was an... impressive rant, Drinnik.

Thanks!

I will actually reply, but it won't be for a while. I'm currently in the middle of writing 10 short stories for my Creative Writing portfolio, packing to store some stuff at my dad's, preparing to move to the other end of the country to live with my mum, searching for a job in the London/Essex area, revising for three resits and trying to organise tickets for my parents so they can attend my graduation.

My dad's internet connection is slow and dodgy, so I won't be able to post there, I'm going to my mum's next Wednesday, but I hardly ever do anything but sleep after a long train journey. I'll probably post on a week Sunday, as that's when everything will (hopefully) have calmed down.

I will say I was overly-harsh in my post because I'm incredibly stressed at the moment.

I hope the Ravenloft Line doesn't die. But to tell you the truth, even when I purchased a lot of 3rd Ed products, I still use the 2nd. Ed stuff mainly. Which means that the products are not good at all.
I was hoping they would improve, but now they are announcing no more new products for this year...

John Mangrum wrote:

Tobias Blackburn wrote:Wouldn't it have been their decision to put out Van Richten's Guide to the Walking Dead?

I've said this before, but: Proposed by the Kargatane (and hinted at in VRA, a book already in the works when N&J came in the line) and half written by the Kargatane. And the half that wasn't written by the Kargatane used the wrong format. And despite that this mistake was caught during the design process, requests to fix it were shot down... by the developers.

I've kept silent on this issue for a long while, now. However, I cannot let this go unaddressed.

First of all, I would like to say that I think that John Mangrum is a talented author with an impeccable knowlege of Ravenloft canon. However, some of his behavior during his time at Arthaus was unprofessional. To his credit, I think that John did what he did because he thought he was doing the right thing. Still, doing the wrong thing for the "right reasons" is no excuse.

The half of the Van Richten's Guide to the Walking Dead that was written in the "wrong format" is my half. What John is referring to is that in my half of the Walking Dead Guide, there are numerous guest "speakers" in the text, like Toben the Many or Ratik Ubel. John felt that the text should have been primarily written by the twins....

What John then proceeded to do was to insist on this being changed. However, he nor any of the Kargatane ever contacted me about this idea. What they instead proposed doing was changing the text without my permission or knowledge. At this point, the developers prevented them from doing so.

Now, understand the implications here. Imagine writing your first big Ravenloft book...and getting back with 50% of your work entire rewritten without your approval. This is unethical and unprofessional behavior. Even an editor sends an author back a "red line" which is a document of suggested changes.

John had my email address. It was on the general list of proposed projects when it first went out. Yet, I was never contacted. Instead, they went over my head to the Developers. I never found out that my half of the book had been attempted to have been altered until years after its publication.

To look at an analogy of what this action was like think of it this way: Let's say you were working for a magazine. And because you didn't like the way a particular author wrote, you went behind their back and changed 50% of all the articles that they wrote. Such an action would be pretty egregious behavior.

However, the changing of other author's work did not stop there. My entries in Denizens of Darkness that I wrote were altered as well. I never knew why until I read John's "authors notes" in that regard, which are on this website.

James Lowder, author of the popular Knight of the Black Rose novel also berated John Mangrum for this behavior. John also changed Lowder's work without his permission. Lowder stated so on the WotC boards and told me this additionally in private.

I have not spoken of this for a long while, because I felt that it would be demoralizing and hurtful to the Ravenloft community. However, this is the third time that the "format" of Van Richten's Guide to the Walking Dead has been picked on, and I cannot abide it. Particuarly, when so many fans enjoy the format the way it is.

It's really sad to hear these things. Specially because as an Old player I feel very fond of Ravenloft, and these kind of things really hurt the game.

Now, understand the implications here. Imagine writing your first big Ravenloft book...and getting back with 50% of your work entire rewritten without your approval. This is unethical and unprofessional behavior. Even an editor sends an author back a "red line" which is a document of suggested changes.

This really depends on the contract and the deadline constraints the project is under. Most gaming contracts I've signed over the years actually explicitly state that the publisher can edit/revise the copy as they see fit. There really is no requirement for them to go back to the original designer.

I don't think there's anything unprofessions *per se* about rewriting material that's deemed unacceptable for whatever reason. It does seem like the right thing to give the original writer a first crack at doing the revision, though.

(Although this whole thing is odd. Who WAS determining format? I know that the books I've worked on for Arthaus and WW had formats determined by the developers... and this was true even of the books I've worked on that were helmed by the eeeevil Nicky and Jackie. Now, I'm wondering what actually was the "wrong format" for 'Walking Dead.' Not that it matters... other to a very small group who seem to want to drag out the same gripes again and again and again and again and again. I think the rest of the universe has basically move on. Maybe it's time for some of you all to catch up.)

For what it's worth, if *I* were to helm a WW RL project, I'd want to go with a format that consisted of multiple voices. Virtually all the books are multi-author projects, so it would make managing them easier.

Don Fernando wrote:It's really sad to hear these things. Specially because as an Old player I feel very fond of Ravenloft, and these kind of things really hurt the game.

Nah. Rampaging egoes rarely have that much of an impact on the final product. If we weren't bitching about it in public, you'd never have known the difference.

In case the DarkDuo, John Mangrum and Rucht Lilavivat are still reading the thread, I must say I really enjoyed the multi-author aspect in VRGttWD. It has the merit of making the guide look original compared to those before, it makes for a very pleasant read, and it actually makes worlds of sense that the neophyte Gennifer and Laurie would have to turn to more knowledgeable characters for information. As an added benefit, it really fleshes out the NPCs in the appendix.

So, in my opinion, the only 'problem' with this format is in that we don't see more of it.

I too don't mind the multiple voices in the "Van Richten's Guide to the walking dead." I don't see how it is the wrong "format" when many other Products by White wolf have used the Multiple voices including" Van Richten's Arsenal" written by the kargatane. The Old Guides didn't have multiple voices becuase they were written by one author per book, plus it fit only have Van Richten's voice.

The only nitpicky thing I didn't like about the " Van Ricen Guide to the Walking Dead" was that Ratik Ubel didn't describe each salient power just the general power, and the Individual power are in the DM box. With other characters, like Toben the Many, Describes individual powers in voice and in dm text. But the above doens't make the book bad. I actually go through the effort to convert the book to 2nd editon, becuase I like the book , and find that it is so useful.

Some People get upset with a few contunity errors In Ravenloft, like In the Van richten Arsenal menitoning a University in Mordent ( I believe a 2nd editon product did to), but GAZ 3 states Mordent has no University. As a Dm I can ignore the "no univeristy" statement. The Dm has control, whether a book says something or not. This is way I don't understand people hate over the "Sheriff of Barovia"'. If you hate something don't include it. For the Record I too, Dislike the Sheriif and the Ebony Gargoyles, but I don't damn a line because of one section in a book.

Thier have been many mistakes in Ravenloft durning TSR too, some even so bad they are not cannon now. An example of such small error under TSR, In the van Richten's Guide to Vampires, Van Richten tracked the Vistani to Richemulot, but later they say he tracked them to Barovia.

I for one, I am happy Ravenloft continues, even though i still use the 2nd editon rules for my Players, I love the 3rd editon Ravenloft books becuase they are not all crunch but alot of text that can used for 2nd and 3rd editon.

I will say I hope that White Wolf continues the Gazatteers to atleast number 7. I need the information about the seas, these areas that were ignored too much in the 2nd editon days.

Rucht Lilavivat wrote:What John then proceeded to do was to insist on this being changed. However, he nor any of the Kargatane ever contacted me about this idea. What they instead proposed doing was changing the text without my permission or knowledge. At this point, the developers prevented them from doing so.

This is, to put it bluntly, utterly, factually, wrong. To begin with, I never saw your half of the book until it hit shelves. Shall we follow the cascading errors from there? It was actually your co-author (you know, the one still working on the line) who requested the changes -- and I strongly doubt that he, in any way, demanded that you be left out of the loop.

So, in short, if you're accurately reporting what was told to you, then whoever told it to you lied. No bones about it. Lied.

Rucht Lilavivat wrote:John had my email address. It was on the general list of proposed projects when it first went out. Yet, I was never contacted. Instead, they went over my head to the Developers.

Because I wasn't a co-author on that book and it's the developer's job to coordinate authors, Rucht. It isn't the case that going to them is going "over your head" -- it's that going to you directly would have been going behind their back -- something which I did, in fact, regularly do with the rest of the Kargatane. But, considering that you weren't part of our design team and I had no past working relationship with you, I wasn't comfortable doing that.

It's also why I didn't go directly to James Lowder, he of the legendary freakout. (Although I did go out of my way to keep him in the loop, which I was able to document despite his ranting. Funny that I would go out of my way to keep authors involved but mysteriously decide to give you the shaft.)

As for the alterations that would have been made? They're called redlines. Our prior developer did them for us on every book we worked on. There's quite a bit of text in R3E, for example, that I not only had never seen prior to publication, but which actually went directly against a few careful considerations made during the design process. But gosh, somehow those changes didn't break my widdle heart.

Rucht Lilavivat wrote:To look at an analogy of what this action was like think of it this way: Let's say you were working for a magazine. And because you didn't like the way a particular author wrote, you went behind their back and changed 50% of all the articles that they wrote. Such an action would be pretty egregious behavior.

Now, let's add in the fact that to get those changes to print, you have to get the editor to approve them. The editor, of course, being not only the person with final say on what goes in the magazine, but also the person who pulls a paycheck to oversee the authors. And then imagine that the editor not only decides to go with the revised draft, but also decides to let the original author find out the hard way.

Now we're getting a little closer to reality.

However, the changing of other author's work did not stop there. My entries in Denizens of Darkness that I wrote were altered as well. I never knew why until I read John's "authors notes" in that regard, which are on this website.

Which ones were those? Honestly, I have no idea. I do know that the original draft I got my hands on was mostly unpublishable garbage. I still have my notes on that original draft -- seriously, which ones did you write? Tell me and I'll tell you exactly what I changed and why. I can do so easily -- because at the time, I wrote a file explaining just that and sent it to Arthaus along with my revisions.

So "put up."

James Lowder, author of the popular Knight of the Black Rose novel also berated John Mangrum for this behavior.

And I was able to document, point for point, that he was full of it (such as producing the e-mail in which I specifically requested that he be shown the changes). Doesn't help your case. What I didn't post was the e-mail he'd sent to us a few weeks earlier, practically a laundry list of nasty behaviors we shouldn't give into -- which he immediately gave into the moment it was his work facing the unimaginable horror of... EDITING.

But hey, maybe Sithicus didn't need a coherent Sites of Interest section. Maybe it didn't need to even vaguely follow the rest of the series' format. Right? Maybe it really should have been nothing but a tease for an unwritten novel for an extinct product line. Right? Because author ego is more important than good books, right?

I have not spoken of this for a long while, because I felt that it would be demoralizing and hurtful to the Ravenloft community. However, this is the third time that the "format" of Van Richten's Guide to the Walking Dead has been picked on, and I cannot abide it. Particuarly, when so many fans enjoy the format the way it is.

For the record, Rucht doesn't particularly like me because he happens to be the only Ravenloft author I've ever chewed out for their work. This occured in private, over on the Malodorous Goat, shortly after VRGttWD was released. Someone there (sorry, board archive doesn't go back that far;must paraphrase) asked what the format was, and Rucht replied that each chapter was written by a different author, "like the other books in the line." My wording may be inexact, but the gist is dead on.

Suffice to say, I was rather shocked. In fact, none of the VRGs had used that format. Only Van Richten's Arsenal had used that format, and we had changed to that format for VRA specifically (in part) to differentiate it from the VRGs. Had Rucht actually never read any of volumes I-IX in a series before writing his half of volume X? Had he only read VRA and, having not done his legwork, assumed that book was the right model for VRG? And had he just inadvertantly admitted that to the fans?

(Was this even possible? Based on some of the unbelievably shoddy work I'd seen turned in for Denizens of Darkness -- the answer to that was absolutely yes.)

I sent him a private message asking him these very questions in a tone that was, I'm sure, impolite. I don't recall getting an answer.

So. Rucht. Did you ever read a VRG before you wrote one? I would consider that a pretty basic step for a professional game designer. Yet your work certainly didn't indicate you'd done so, and your public comments strongly indicated that you had not.

midnightcat wrote:I too don't mind the multiple voices in the "Van Richten's Guide to the walking dead." I don't see how it is the wrong "format" when many other Products by White wolf have used the Multiple voices including" Van Richten's Arsenal" written by the kargatane.

This is easy to address:

The format of a Van Richten Guide isn't determined by the format of books that aren't Van Richten Guides. This includes Van Richten's Arsenal, which even says, specifically, in character, in print, that it isn't using the usual format.

(For the curious, the reference is buried all the way back on pg. 7. Third paragraph, first sentence.)