What Darklords Should Go?

[Dominique]

I also like Ivan. Of course, part of the trick is to get rid of his tendency to wander around in costume. That makes him much less silly.

[Ail]

Actually, just to add some names that jump to mind as those that precisely don't jump to mind when I think of Ravenloft... meaning those that could go and I wouldn't feel the slightest pang of regret:

Davion the Mad
Easan, the Mad (same epithet on both?)
Monette (one-time darklord, perhaps, and despite a highlight of fame in Stu's campaign, I still don't buy him)
Stezen d'Polarno
Yagno Petrovna (debatable)
Thakok-An (sp?)

There seems to be some problems with Sanguinia... is it only me that immediately recall "Fearless Vampire Killers" when I think of this domain?

[Pale]

I'd agree with Ail - Kharkov never felt... memorable. "Just a cat-themed vampire". I know his backstory, but never could quite care about it. Hazlin... thematically kind of interesting, and I'd like to keep the setting, but I really think a lot of it needs to be polished. I agree - it has some interesting taboos, but... as it is, it just feels inaccessible.

I really like the Wildlands and the Croc, though I didn't like the talking animals or the fruitflies killing him. I think the domain works very well as an adjunct to the cluster it's in, shared with, what, maybe Souragne and Sri Raji?

[Lady Victor]

I always thought it obvious, but perhaps it's the recovering Catholic in me... IMC Ivan and Ivana are sort of Ravenloft versions of Caesar and Lucretia Borgia, from the days of the really, really naughty popes in the Dark Vatican Days. I mean, yeah, they're brother and sister (or kissing cousins), and yeah, he has tie me up tie me down, buy me chocolates and slap me simple fantasies, and she's ready with the Godiva and a cat 'o nines, but the potential for misery the two of them generate is amazing, and the Powers help anybody who gets in the way! If you don't know the sheet-twisting history of the Dark Popes, just think Cruel Intentions with Sarah Michelle Gellar and Ryan Phillipe's characters running a domain. My players have come to loathe time in Borca, because they know the indulgences they end up paying will be waaaay more than any actual indulgences they might um, *indulge* in. So I'm quite fond of Caesar. I mean Ivan.

That said, IMC we killed off Malkan, built a new port city north of Egertus, and got a new Darklord for Nova Vaasa... So I guess my vote goes by default to Malkan, since I already got rid of him.

Oh, and keeping Davion is a *must.* There is nothing better than a multiple personality DL who can sell an envelope of lacewings in a wizard's shop one minute and whale the almight tar out of a random stranger for the glory of Loviatar the next, only to drop your whip, stomp across town, lay back with a beer and call it a day.

Last note, and I'll call it a night. Kharkov never did much to light my fire. I've run a campaign for four years steady where the players are now playing second and in some cases third generation characters (the children of characters, or the characters' children's chidren) and to the best of my knowledge and memory, no group of players has ever done more than skirted the edge of Valachan. nor has Kharkov even meowed loudly. He gets the big ol boot.

In fact, now that I'm thinking about it, a terrible, forest-leveling event could require a new DL to take over Valachan...

Cheers!

[brilliantlight]

I can see getting rid of Kharkov he doesn't add much. I actually like Davion . Eason is interesting but I don't like his back story very much. You shouldn't wind up being a dark lord for something you can't help doing, same goes for Malkin. Death is also expendable. What good is a domain that you can't survive visiting? IMO Mordenheim should be the dark lord not Adam. Ebonbane bites it. An intelligent sword as the DL? It simply doesn't have enough personality to be interesting and the same goes for the House of Lamant.

[Rotipher of the FoS]

So much we could do with the Wildlands, indeed... if only the basic premise were changed.

FWIW, I've always thought the idea that all animals in the Wildlands would be sentient to be stupid. If that were the case, why haven't the hooved herbivores -- who'd vastly outnumber, and likely out-muscle, the predators -- sensibly teamed up and stomped all the local carnivores into the ground? The only reason there are actual lions in Africa is that the Cape buffalo aren't foresighted enough to ambush them.

Personally, I narrowed down the roster of Awakened beasts by ruling that only individual animals which kill other animals become sentient in turn, IMC. This preserves Wildlands carnivores' status as intelligent, but exempts the bulk of the herbivores; among aggressive plant-eaters like hippos, only some of their number will be intelligent, and older animals who've fought for survival throughout their long lives are more likely to be. For carnivores, as well as the apes and elephants, it's a bit of a rite of passage to ensure that their offspring kill something while still young enough to benefit from intelligence while learning from the adults.

[Rotipher of the FoS]

Am I the only one that likes Ivan? I think people underestimate him. Yes he's a spoiled man-child with Marques de Sade undertones, but he's a lot smarter and craftier than he lets on. He wouldn't be able to handle all the diplomatic stuff and keep things at bay if he wasn't. He proves that you don't have to be a monster or ultra powerful to be a force to be reckoned with.

I like having Ivan around for those reasons, and also because it's such a departure from D&D norms to have a complete noncombatant (poisoning peoples' dinner doesn't count) as the Big Bad. Both Ivan and Ivana were 0-level NPCs in their original write-ups, and that in itself was pretty much unprecedented at the time.

Me, I don't like the current implication that Borca will implode if either of the Dark Twins buys it. Er, excuse me? Each of them managed to run a country effectively, without the other's assistance, for years, before the Grand Conjunction! Is it really plausible to assume that they'd ever trusted one another, enough to let the nation become overly dependent on their cooperation? Isn't it far more likely that each has been laying out contingencies to preserve his/her own power, should it prove necessary to eliminate the other? Yes, the cousins were fond of (the idea of) each other, but these are Dilisnyas we're talking about.

[HuManBing]

For what it's worth, Vlad Drakov and Azalin and Strahd could be charged with second degree murder generally. They could be liable for first degree murder, but you'd have to prove premeditation, which is usually pretty hard to do.

Ivan and Ivana are among the few who automatically stand liable for first degree murder, of which poisoning is prima facie evidence without any need for proof of premeditation.

In this respect at least, Ivan and Ivana are even more reprehensible than the combat heavyweights.

[lostboy]

This preserves Wildlands carnivores' status as intelligent, but exempts the bulk of the herbivores;

Exactly, and thats where its scary. By day its beautiful and awe-inspiring, but come twilight the predators come out to hunt. Toss in some local tribes, ritual magic, and attempts by Dementlieu or Paridon to colonise it (Im thiking the film "The Ghost and the Darkness" for inspiration here), and you have the base for a really interesting domain.

The key as far I see it with domains with little society is to give pc's a reason to go there. As written the wildlands are either a big game hunting mission or a dumped by the mists and have to escape thing. If they are goign to help a colonial outpost or are part fo a colonial expedition for riches or trade its much easier to use as a domian IMO.

[Ail]

This preserves Wildlands carnivores' status as intelligent, but exempts the bulk of the herbivores;

Exactly, and thats where its scary. By day its beautiful and awe-inspiring, but come twilight the predators come out to hunt. Toss in some local tribes, ritual magic, and attempts by Dementlieu or Paridon to colonise it (Im thiking the film "The Ghost and the Darkness" for inspiration here), and you have the base for a really interesting domain.

The key as far I see it with domains with little society is to give pc's a reason to go there. As written the wildlands are either a big game hunting mission or a dumped by the mists and have to escape thing. If they are goign to help a colonial outpost or are part fo a colonial expedition for riches or trade its much easier to use as a domian IMO.

Yes, that's much like what I had in mind. It is important to have human tribes there for me, human tribes that mesh with the jungle as much as the animals. As far as I rememer, the original writing doesn't have any of that, does it?

I also like Rotipher's idea allowing some herbivores to be sentient. Perhaps enough to communicate with humans somehow, although not verbally, but not enough to make a whole 'tribe' (what's the proper word for this? population?) of them to change the status quo. But this leaves me thinking: wouldn't an awakened intelligent herbivore be able to lead its mates in a more effective manner, and perhaps manipulate them too?

[Rotipher of the FoS]

Only if it's already the recognized leader of the group, and only if it can convey instructions to group members who are still stuck with Int 1 or 2. The way I set it up, sentient animals IMC can't actually communicate with their non-sentient counterparts, except by the same crude body language and vocalizations the non-intelligent ones use among themselves. When Mr. Bull Hippo bites a crocodile in half, and becomes sentient as a result, he's still unable to rally his hippo cows to attack anything they wouldn't have attacked without his enhanced brainpower to plan the assault, go where they wouldn't go anyway, etc. With only a few, rare exceptions (e.g. a meerkat dominant female kills a lizard, becoming a super-tactician), sentient herbivores, insectivores, and pure scavengers in my Wildlands can't really direct their non-sentient associates; indeed, their abnormal behavior often gets them kicked out of their groups, left to wander alone with a huge chip on their shoulders.

Moreover, most individual herbivores that become sentient this way IMC fail to catch on that it's killing something that makes them that way: by the time their Awakened brains start working well enough to discern the connection, they've already forgotten the incident. The apes and elephants -- both of which were specifically described as intelligent in the Wildlands' 2E write-up -- are sociable and perceptive enough to have caught on, but most of the other herbivores which become sentient also become confused outcasts in their own herds: unable to convey what's happening to them to their still-stupid fellows, and unaware of why they're suddenly different.

[Rotipher of the FoS]

Yes, that's much like what I had in mind. It is important to have human tribes there for me, human tribes that mesh with the jungle as much as the animals. As far as I rememer, the original writing doesn't have any of that, does it?

Not since King Crocodile ate all the hairless apes, at least.

One interesting option, that would be true to African folklore as well as the original spirit of the domain, might be to allow the sentient animals to take on human forms for purposes of interaction with humans. That would emulate plenty of genuine African stories about animal-people -- Anansi the Spider is the quickest to spring to mind -- and it would neatly fix the problem of the domain's dearth of PC/NPC interaction. Imagine an encounter between PC explorers and a "native woman" who's actually a leopardess, scouting out their camp to see who'd be most easily killed for food, or an ambush by brutish, whooping "primitives" who revert to their hyena forms when slain!

Perhaps, if the kill-an-animal-to-become-sentient link is one that you guys like, then the ability to become human could be restricted to Awakened beasts that have killed, or at least tasted the blood of, real humanoids? That would give the sentient animals a legitimate motive to stalk PCs, if a human guise is something they covet. Given that King Crocodile knows that a hairless ape is one of the things that might kill him, perhaps being able to assume that shape at will is considered a last-ditch defense against his hunger, startling Croc enough that he'll miss his strike and give his prey a chance to escape. For that matter, ambitious Awakened animals might believe that they could kill (and supplant) the King, provided they do so in human form.

[brilliantlight]

Yes, that's much like what I had in mind. It is important to have human tribes there for me, human tribes that mesh with the jungle as much as the animals. As far as I rememer, the original writing doesn't have any of that, does it?

Not since King Crocodile ate all the hairless apes, at least.

One interesting option, that would be true to African folklore as well as the original spirit of the domain, might be to allow the sentient animals to take on human forms for purposes of interaction with humans. That would emulate plenty of genuine African stories about animal-people -- Anansi the Spider is the quickest to spring to mind -- and it would neatly fix the problem of the domain's dearth of PC/NPC interaction. Imagine an encounter between PC explorers and a "native woman" who's actually a leopardess, scouting out their camp to see who'd be most easily killed for food, or an ambush by brutish, whooping "primitives" who revert to their hyena forms when slain!

Perhaps, if the kill-an-animal-to-become-sentient link is one that you guys like, then the ability to become human could be restricted to Awakened beasts that have killed, or at least tasted the blood of, real humanoids? That would give the sentient animals a legitimate motive to stalk PCs, if a human guise is something they covet. Given that King Crocodile knows that a hairless ape is one of the things that might kill him, perhaps being able to assume that shape at will is considered a last-ditch defense against his hunger, startling Croc enough that he'll miss his strike and give his prey a chance to escape. For that matter, ambitious Awakened animals might believe that they could kill (and supplant) the King, provided they do so in human form.

An excelent idea that certainly would make the domain more interesting.

[Strahdsbuddy]

It is a Euro-centric idea, but Ravenloft is a Euro-centric setting: IMC the Amber Wastes and Steaming Lands are one cluster, and the Wildlands are HUGE. This gives it the Dark Continent feel necissary for it to work as a realm worthy of colonization. Most of the Western Core nations (Dementlieu, Lamordia, Paridon/Mordent) have small footholds in the cluster, though the search for a "Western Passage" through the Sea of Sorrows could help them reach Sri Raji easier (it is on the wrong side fo the WIldlands) and avoid Prince Othmarr's oppresive taxes on shipping. That's another thread.

King Croc's concept is relatively sound for the purposes, but his immortality (Another croc just becomes him) and the lack of any and all threats in his domain take away a lot of the drama. With a much larger domain it would be easier to hide cells of Hairless Apes outside Croc's sphere or awareness. Or serpents, for that matter.

Connect that to the Yuan-ti thread elsewhere on this board, and you have a perfect foil to him that could be just across a domain border, or in a dark corner where he doesn't go--Corocodiles are not known for their ranging habits.

Croc isn't so terrible if he is really just a representation of primordial forces that man cannot tame, which is really how Africa was thought of for most of the colonization era (Look at a map of it acround 1800 even....lot of blank spots in the middle!). The WIldlands should have the feel of a place where man wasn't meant to tread, but a great Gothic archetype is the brave/foolish man who thinks his level of civilization can protect him from the backwater land, and it is his duty to conquer it!

[Yaoi Huntress Earth]

All great ideas for King Croc since I always thought he and his domain had potiental especally since I was raised on African folktales as a child. As for Urik, I definately like the attempt at "civilizing" aspect one of the forum members had does give him potiental. As for some of the other names mentioned...

Thok-An: Kilandy has some potiental as a domain that is focused on the aspect of survival and the cruel lengths people will go to get it (even if it means destroying the land itself) or at least alievate their misery (like the gladitor fights), but it does need a differnet DL. If this can't be fixed,

Tsien Chiang: The brainstorming we did would really help this domain so I say keep her.

Esan and Davion: I'd go with a combination of the two and their domains. I just like the idea of a chaotic world and the horror it can exploit.

Yagno: I like Yagno and his oppressive domain (especally after Circle of Evil) and could really drive the heroes to want this world to get better. Kind of like if fundamentalist religions treated eating like they do sex.