4e: Is it D&D to you?

[Jester of the FoS]

and 3rd edition is better than 3rd in many other aspects.

Which aspects would those be exactly?

[alhoon]

Very funny. Still, I have something to say about this.

3rd edition isn't a single thing. It's huge. Starwars Saga IMO is very very good. Better than 3rd and better than 4th. And it's 3rd edition.

The great problem is that as good as the SSaga system is, it's difficult to downgrade it down to medevial fantasy.

D20 modern also has awesome classes. That's what I call freedom of choice. You customize your class as you want. Again though, this system is difficult to turn to D&D like medevial fantasy. The "oast" seems to earth centered. I want kingdoms with pegasus knights, castles made of ice on top of a 3 miles tall mountain, Temples around which the land is blessed, never drought, never snow, everspring etc.

Oh, and let's not forget, I also wand a small xenophobic demiplane with small patches of land ruled by evil creatures doomed from their own wrongs to suffer. Mists are everywhere and there is something watching.

Perhaps when I have time I'll rip of saga, modern, 4th and 3rd and make something out of it.

[Zettaijin]

Think of a world where everyone can spontaneously heal themselves...I don't even want to start imagining the changes you would have to make. Everyone would have a completely different mindset.

Hit points were always a little wobbly in terms of realism. Just what did HP represent? What does HP growth mean?

Let's not forget that this is a game with set, arbitrary rules to make it enjoyable and "fair" for all. Healing surges might not be entirely realistic but then again a lot of D&D mechanics aren't realistic, nor are they meant to be.

Understand that in the case of Ravenloft, we are dealing with a world where physics simply can't work the same way as in the real world.

Can you imagine the mindset of a person who knows that entering the mists can somehow lead you to a country many miles away in a few hours of walk?

Can you imagine the mindset of people who know that if they die, they can always get brought back to life by way of magic?

Can you imagine the mindset of people who saw the dead rise en masse from their tombs to oppose an invading army?

When compared to the above, that people can get a proverbial second wind and trudge through their injuries to finish a battle doesn't seem all that difficult to believe in. Neither does the idea of people taking a few minutes to rest and regaining some vigour.

[DeepShadow of FoS]

You can only use them after a five minute rest, so they're not of much use when you're busy running for your life.

Think of a world where everyone can spontaneously heal themselves...I don't even want to start imagining the changes you would have to make. Everyone would have a completely different mindset.

You're assuming HP represent actual wounds, which all editions have been clear they aren't.

[Troile]

I'm not arguing for realism in the sense of our world.

Magic by its definition is outside the laws of physics.

Hit points aren't realistic but that doesn't mean I want my fighter to be overtly magical.

Its the flavour that interests me.

You're assuming HP represent actual wounds, which all editions have been clear they aren't.

I agree that its all fuzzy...but if it isn't wounds what is it?

If it represents the character not getting hurt as much how come the cure wounds spells don't cure a percentage of the character's hit points (which would make them better as they should be...)

I said I'm fine with people playing 4e.

Healing surges are just too far for me. 4e has a very anime and/or munchkin feel to me so I stay away.

It represents different things to different people I'm sure.

I played 2e but I found 3.x to be exactly what I was looking for in a game (well once white wolf starting making Ravenloft in 3e anyway).

[Lord Soth]

If it represents the character not getting hurt as much how come the cure wounds spells don't cure a percentage of the character's hit points (which would make them better as they should be...)

Because that introduces a degree of needless complexity that the game doesn't need.

For instance, in any prior edition of the game, a character with enough hit points could survive a fall that would kill anyone in the real world. Is that because he was just that friggin' tough? Nope. That's because hit points don't just represent the characters raw toughness. They also represent plot armor. That character didn't survive because the levels he'd gained made his body tougher than iron. He survived because he bounced off an awning on the way down and landed on an apple cart. In short, those hit points represented pure, unadulerated luck.

Likewise, having 100 hit points doesn't mean that you need to be stabbed 20 times with a longsword before you die. If you're put into a stockade it isn't going to take Jack Ketch five whacks at your neck to finally decapitate you. They represent your ability to turn a potentially lethal blow into a less serious one, or avoid it altogether. Whenever I thought of hit points, I always treated them as a combination of things. They weren't just physical injuries (they rarely were, and that was usually only the case when a hit reduced you to 0 or less, or when a hit could be described as inflicting damage without being normally lethal, like a punch or a kick). For the most part they were a measure of morale, luck, and other factors. For instance, this is how I viewed combat in D&D:

A fighter, a thief, a mage, and a cleric are fighting an orc. The fighter charges at the orc, bellowing his war cry as he brings his sword down hard onto the orcs head. The orc raises his shield in time and blocks the attack, but his knees buckle from the force of the fighter's onslaught (subtract 9 hit points). The thief follows up, creeping behind the orc, as he tries to stab him in the back. The orc notices at the last second, and twists out of the way, the thief's dagger skidding off of his chainmail (subtract 6 hit points). The orc strikes back, swinging his scimitar wide at the fighter before him, who stumbles back, the scimitar blade mere inches from his throat (subtract 6 hit points from the fighter). The mage, seeing an opening, reaches into his component bag and pulls out the components for a Melf's Acid Arrow, which he casts at the orc. The orc, however, sees the missile coming and easily dodges out of the way, laughing at the mage's pitiful magics (no damage). He's not laughing for long, though, as the cleric charges him from behind. Just as the orc turns to look at him the cleric swings his mace wide, connecting with the orc's jaw and sending blood, spittle, and teeth flying as he knocks the orc unconscious (subtract 5 hit points, and reduced to -2).

So the only real damage the orc took, there, was the hit from the mace which brought him down. The rest winded him, demoralized him, etc. Likewise, the fighter lost hit points because of his close call. Throws off his reactions, his timing, etc. And each time he gets thrown off his game his hit points are reduced even further, til finally his hit points are low enough that someone can land a telling blow on him and take him out.

That's the way I've always played it, at least, as hit points as they stood just never made any sense to me (that's why I was hoping for something like the Damage Save from M&M in 4E). 4E, however, went and changed the definition of hit points so that they reflected the way and I many others treated hit points. From the PHB:

Hit points (hp) measure your ability to stand up to punishment, turn deadly strikes into glancing blows, and stay on your feet throughout a battle. Hit points represent more than physical endurance. They represent your character’s skill, luck, and resolve—all the factors that combine to help you stay alive in a combat situation.

So a healing surge isn't a case of regenerating wounds like Wolverine or anything of the sort. What they represent is inner pools of resolve that allow you to push onward, ignoring the pain from aches and bruises incurred during combat, whereas most other people would stop to regroup. They represent morale boosts, fortune turning in your favor, and the will to fight on. Cleric healing isn't just raw healing. It's also inspiration, soothing frayed nerves, and replacing fear with resolve. It's why you can have a non-magic healer like the Warlord, now. He doesn't actually heal you. Rather, he inspires you to press on. So nope, hit points aren't just wounds. They're much more then that, with physical wounds being a small part of what they're made up of.

[Pamela]

Thank you, Lord Soth, for both a very clear explanation and illustration of hit points in combat. I'll admit I've often slipped on the side of this slope (with lots of bruises and scars for my poor PCs ) and this was useful to me, particularly in reference to the Warlord's non-magical role.

[Lord Soth]

particularly in reference to the Warlord's non-magical role

You want a clear example of a Warlord in a movie? Mickey from Rocky. "GET UP, YOU SONUVABITCH! Cause Mickey loves ya!" *cue Rocky theme music as Mickey uses an Inspiring Word on Rocky*

[alhoon]

And also remember all the "Die hard" movies, or the Stalone movies. The hero takes a beating and you say "Wow, he was trashed for good!" and next scene he seems mostly fine, beats up more bad guys and gets more beating.

And in 4th edition, healing spells/effects do heal a percentage of your hit points mostly.
Usually healing in 4th heals about 25% of your hp. In some cases it heals 25%+something (like 25%+1d6+4).

[Jester of the FoS]

I agree with the above.
I always had trouble with healing surges and their cinematic effect when describing 4e to some friends. I finally settled on this (paraphrase as needed):

You're chasing down your archenemy through a hallway, but he's prepared with a readied action. Bam! A critical hit!
You're down, reduced to negative hitpoints, you slouch down against the wall. But there's still time for a death save. A natural 20; instant healing surge! You follow this with Second Wind and rise from the floor, back to half hitpoints.
Moving towards him you chant "Hello. My name is Indigo Montoya. You killed my father. Prepare to die!"

[Pamela]

Actually, the first image that came into my mind for the Warlord was the ole army sarge in countless war films telling his men he'd get them all out alive.

All except the 1hp fellow who shows everyone his girlfriend's picture...

[Lord Soth]

Poor bastard. No one ever told him he was just a Minion.

[Paladyn]

"Hello. My name is Indigo Montoya. You killed my father. Prepare to die!"

You know, when I think of healing surges, all that comes to me is Boris the Blade, also calle Boris, the Bulletdodger, from Guy Ritchie's "Snatch".
BAM! - "Almost..."
BAM, BAM "Job twoyu mat"
BAM, BAM BAM!! - Argh..."

Next scene he's alive and kicking.
But, as it fits heroic fantasy I still don't know if it goes along with RL.

[Isabella]

But, as it fits heroic fantasy I still don't know if it goes along with RL.

Given how quickly some undead can chew through your healing surges, you may not have to worry about that.

[Lord Soth]

Given how quickly some undead can chew through your healing surges, you may not have to worry about that.

Yep, let's see. From the MM we have:

• Atropal
• Bodak Skulk
• Bodak Reaver
• Death Titan
• Bog Hag (instead of removing Healing Surges, the Bog Hag reduces the amount healed for anyone in her aura)
• Death Hag (keeps you from using them)
• Rakshasa Archer (like the Death Hag)
• Rakshasa Dread Knight (like the Bog Hag)
• Black Slaad (Void Slaad)
• Deathlock Wight
• Wight
• Battle Wight
• Battle Wight Commander
• Slaughter Wight (all five Wights have At-Will Powers that strip the target of a Healing Surge)