Café de Nuit

But let's not be too hasty here. Foreign loan words have a long history and just because the dominant language is similar to Italian or Latin-based it doesn't mean that Germanic terms might be completely absent.

In fact, I'd be suspicious of any language that doesn't have any foreign loan words.

Considering how Germanic-speaking Falkovnia is both Borca's neighbor and its greatest source of fear, militarily, it's quite possible that Ivana deliberately gave her pet poison-purveyors a Falkovnian-sounding name for its intimidation value. Sort of like how bad guys in old English-language pulp fiction often have names that sound Arab, Chinese, or Russian, depending on whom the average reader considered "the enemy" at the time such period pieces were written.

Alternately, if you'd prefer an Italian name, something indirectly derived from "Rappaccini" could certainly be suitable, much as Wittgenstein would be a good alternative name for Mordenheim. The ermordenung were originally derived from Nathaniel Hawthorne's short story, "Rappaccini's Daughter". "Rapacine" means "predatory" in Italian, so something like "Vellenni" (from "veleno" = venom/poison) might work well as both an in-joke and a name, assuming your players don't actually speak Italian.

Rotipher of the FoS wrote:Considering how Germanic-speaking Falkovnia is both Borca's neighbor and its greatest source of fear....

Therein lies the problem for me. Falkovnia is NOT a Germanic culture IMC. I don't know why they decided to turn Falkovnia into Nazi Germany, but personally, I'm just not going along with it. Nor am I the only one, from what I hear. Hence, it seems a bit of a stretch to explain why this Lamordian term got into common use in Borca, since they're not all that close to each other and there doesn't appear to be all that much interaction between them.

Well, if you rule out Falkovnian as a source, I suppose you could always trace the term back to the homeworld of the Barovians. It's pretty clear from the kinds of names that turn up in early Barovian history (and even in Balok-speaking nobles' family trees, e.g. Strahd's middle brother was Sturm) that Old Borjia once had close contact with one or more cultures of a Germanic flavor. Perhaps "ermordenung" could derive from such an archaic language: one that virtually no one in the Core actually speaks any more, yet Ivana came across in an old book about poisons from the Dilisnya family library.

It's a little clichéd I know but given a personality like Ivana's as a cold, not a little playful sadist...perhaps stepping away from the 'ermordenung' name and derivatives entirely. After all, I imagine them to be like dolls or even the children that she can never have for an Italianate domain.

Now regrettably I don't speak nearly as much Italian as I would like and I feel that it might tread on the toes of Odiare. I think a suitable translation of the word 'poppet' would be quite sinister (those Buffy fans stop sniggering at the back).

The thing is to a non-German, non-Italian speaker (give me time!!), the word 'ermordenung' sounds quite sinister. The balance is a acoustic/accuracy one...think about it, if you build up the 'erdmordenung' most new players will assume that it's likely to be some kind of hideous dungeon crawling monstrosity. Not that pretty tavern wench or handsome stable lad where they are resting for the night...preaching to the converted, I know.

Besides what about 'Odiare'? Odiously named I feel.

Lucien Doomdark wrote:
Besides what about 'Odiare'? Odiously named I feel.

It is. Simply an Italian verb (and not spanish, btw, but close enough: just drop the 'e'). No suggestions, though.

'Maligno', in these southern countries as Portugal and Spain, is usually a nickname of the devil himself. It might be too strong for a puppet, I think.

But in general, what are we looking for here? Names that would sound believable in a country of a supposed language, but that wouldn't be outright ominous? Like, simply, Cittá Vecchia (old city)? Names that could be describing some geographical accident, or historical event?

My own Borca isn't so much Italianate as it is a mix of Slavic, Germanic, and Italian influences. Maybe a bit like Croatia- just not in close details.

My Invidia is more Italianate, in a Castle of Otranto kinda way.

I've never seen Falkovnia as German at the roots. Maybe the 'Germans' [Lamordians, I'd imagine] came there a long time ago as merchants and colonists, the way Germans did in much of Eastern Europe during medeival times. Think of German settlers in Poland or the Saxons who went into Transylvania and Wallachia. I also don't use all that Nazi stuff. He's evil impaler man, not a Hitler-clone.

Rotipher of the FoS wrote:Well, if you rule out Falkovnian as a source, I suppose you could always trace the term back to the homeworld of the Barovians. It's pretty clear from the kinds of names that turn up in early Barovian history (and even in Balok-speaking nobles' family trees, e.g. Strahd's middle brother was Sturm) that Old Borjia once had close contact with one or more cultures of a Germanic flavor. Perhaps "ermordenung" could derive from such an archaic language: one that virtually no one in the Core actually speaks any more, yet Ivana came across in an old book about poisons from the Dilisnya family library.

Hey, that's a good idea! Thank you.

Lucien Doomdark wrote:The thing is to a non-German, non-Italian speaker (give me time!!), the word 'ermordenung' sounds quite sinister. The balance is a acoustic/accuracy one...think about it, if you build up the 'erdmordenung' most new players will assume that it's likely to be some kind of hideous dungeon crawling monstrosity. Not that pretty tavern wench or handsome stable lad where they are resting for the night...preaching to the converted, I know.

I agree with you there. Ermordernung does have a sort of sinister ring to it. Imagine saying it with an Italian accent instead of a German one; it sounds really sinister, yet almost poetic.

Ail wrote:

Lucien Doomdark wrote:
Besides what about 'Odiare'? Odiously named I feel.

It is. Simply an Italian verb (and not spanish, btw, but close enough: just drop the 'e'). No suggestions, though.

'Maligno', in these southern countries as Portugal and Spain, is usually a nickname of the devil himself. It might be too strong for a puppet, I think.

But in general, what are we looking for here? Names that would sound believable in a country of a supposed language, but that wouldn't be outright ominous? Like, simply, Cittá Vecchia (old city)? Names that could be describing some geographical accident, or historical event?

That's exactly what I'm looking for. Too many of these will just make people roll their eyes if they catch on to their meanings. And Cittá Vecchia is a definite improvement over Odiare! I believe I will use that.

ewancummins wrote: My Invidia is more Italianate, in a Castle of Otranto kinda way.

I noticed the Italian influences with Invidia and decided to model it a bit after Slovenia. But I'm also using an enlarged model of the Core, which gives more room for most domains to have a more varied landscape. I also decided that Malocchio ("evil eye") must be a nickname. I'm thinking I'll have his real name be Miroslav.

ewancummins wrote:I also don't use all that Nazi stuff. He's evil impaler man, not a Hitler-clone.

Eh. I don't mind the Germanic additions to Falkovnia, as I've spun them as more akin to Teutonic Knights in Prussia and Lithuania than to Nazis, with nonhumans cast as the pagans the TKs enslaved, and the bulk of the Falkovnian peasantry, as the forced converts they oppressed. It's not as if Deutschland never produced any badass bigots before Hitler, after all: aside from the Talons' devotion being given to Drakov rather than to God -- a cult-of-personality phenomenon that's hardly unique to the Third Reich -- most of the elements of brutal militarism and intolerance match up.

As for Vlad himself being a Vlad-the-Impaler clone, it's not that shabby a twist for him to wind up with a domain of German-speakers, even so. The real Vlad Tepes despised his German neighbors for not supporting him against the Turks, so I wouldn't be surprised if the DPs gave him nothing but Germans to rule, should Tepes have been granted darklordship: domains are custom-built to frustrate their lords, after all, as well as harbor them.

Ail wrote:'Maligno', in these southern countries as Portugal and Spain, is usually a nickname of the devil himself. It might be too strong for a puppet, I think.

Keep in mind, Maligno was what Figlio re-named himself. I think he chose a strong name for an ego boost, to try to hide his inability to take over other people. I'll keep it. Now, Odiere might be changed...

ewancummins wrote:My own Borca isn't so much Italianate as it is a mix of Slavic, Germanic, and Italian influences. Maybe a bit like Croatia- just not in close details.

I totally agree with you Ewan, if I'm honest I never really associated Borca with an Italian feel anyway. IMO opinion Borca was always more of a Hungarian or Austro-hungarian empire type of place, certainly with a more eastern european flavour than an Italian one.

lostboy wrote:

ewancummins wrote:My own Borca isn't so much Italianate as it is a mix of Slavic, Germanic, and Italian influences. Maybe a bit like Croatia- just not in close details.

I totally agree with you Ewan, if I'm honest I never really associated Borca with an Italian feel anyway. IMO opinion Borca was always more of a Hungarian or Austro-hungarian empire type of place, certainly with a more eastern european flavour than an Italian one.

Y'know, if you just look at the names of Borca's settlements, it certainly does have more of an Eastern European flavor, e.g., Levkarest. I guess I've always associated Borca with Italy because I remember reading about women controlling their lovers and husbands with poison (also mentioned in the bizarre movie Brotherhood of the Wolf). Borca's treatment in Gaz 4 heightened this association.

On the other hand, Invidia sounds a bit more Italian, with its two settlements named Curricolo and Karina, in addition to the name of the domain itself and its tyrannical ruler being called Malocchio. The problem is that the resemblance to Italy pretty much ends there. Odaire is an Italian city, but it's not really a full domain, if you know what I mean. Monte Mal is modeled on Venice, but it's neither big nor versatile enough to capture the feel of anywhere else in Italy unless you expand it.

So, I guess I'm saying that what we really need is a more Italian-style domain, either by adding a new domain or revamping Invidia. Of course, while we're at it, I'd like a more Scottish domain besides Forfar, an Irish domain, a Welsh domain, a Portugese domain, etc.

Seriously, though, if there's one complaint I have about the original design of RL - besides the silly names - is that too many domains were based on just a few European cultures. We have 4 English domains (Mordent, Tepest, Staunton Bluffs, and Zherisia), two French domains (Dementlieu and Richemulot), one English-French domain (Ghastria), 5 Eastern Eueopean (Barovia, Gundarak, Borca, Invidia [sort of], Sanguinia) and so on. A lot of other interesting cultures are just absent or missing. It's easy to say "Well, just make one yourself, then", but it's a lot easier said than done to just come up with a handful of domains to fill these cultural holes. The most difficult part is coming up with darklords who haven' t been done before and frankly, the culture-repeat domains make it even harder.

I'm rather curious on that Portuguese domain, SpiritCaller, me being Portuguese and all I just never looked at Portugal under a gothic lens, although arguably our best prose comes from the XIX century. But I don't know, what would you expect to see in a 'Portuguese' domain, besides the names?

SpiritCaller wrote: On the other hand, Invidia sounds a bit more Italian, with its two settlements named Curricolo and Karina, in addition to the name of the domain itself and its tyrannical ruler being called Malocchio. The problem is that the resemblance to Italy pretty much ends there.

Actually Invidia reminds me a lot of Italy under fascism. In my campaign I made than explicit by calling Malocchio the "Duce" of Invidia (I think it's canon actually; a forest called "Padure Duce" is translated as "Forest of the Lord", so...).

SpiritCaller wrote:So, I guess I'm saying that what we really need is a more Italian-style domain, either by adding a new domain or revamping Invidia.

Well I know some people is working on that in the Ravenloft Reanimated contest

SpiritCaller wrote:Y'know, if you just look at the names of Borca's settlements, it certainly does have more of an Eastern European flavor, e.g., Levkarest. I guess I've always associated Borca with Italy because I remember reading about women controlling their lovers and husbands with poison (also mentioned in the bizarre movie Brotherhood of the Wolf). Borca's treatment in Gaz 4 heightened this association.

Other Italy homages in Borca would have to include the Dilisyna family's mafia overtones and the location of the Ezran "Vatican" in Levkarest.