Rafael wrote:The point is, RL was initially conceived as a crossover point, like later SJ and PS.
To make it a setting on its own, was TSR's poor response to feed the needs for a full-fledged horror setting.
Ravenloft done PROPERLY, with a consistent backstory, and a less artificial look would have been one of the very best settings ever made.
The way it was done, it is suprising that so good stuff was created on the base of such a rather confuse base.
And I say that as one of the friends and lovers of the setting. Imagine how others talk about it.
I dunno. I think the 'patchwork demiplane' works pretty well. I like that it isn't a planet. You just have to deepen the background and smoothe out a few rough spots. That's what I have done IMC.
I disagree about RL being like SJ and PS, though. It's fundamentally unlike those two settings. They are both HUGE, while Ravenloft is rather small. The big thing: SJ and PS are meta-settings that allow free travel among various worlds: published and homebrew. Ravenloft is a prison and not a highway. I think it serves a very different role.
Delight is to him- a far, far upward, and inward delight- who against the proud gods and commodores of this earth, ever stands forth his own inexorable self.
Rafael, don't you think Ravenloft post-DoD was treated more as its own place rather than a patchwork? It certainly did away with the "Weekend in Hell" hooks that existed in earlier 2E stuff. I'd say DoD made it live and the Gaz series brought it to life. If it is going to be released as its own unrelated world (as has been suggested) then perhaps it is finally getting that next logical step as having its own canon, cosmology, history, etc. Like ewancummings, I think the patchwork was part of the terror. People and entire countries appearing out of nowhere should make people sit up and notice. The Core itself was in flux right up to the original Black Box after all.
HumanBing, you bring up GURPS a lot, and while I don't have access to any of the books, i think I disagree with you that d20 didn't lend itself well to Horror gaming. I think the focus on skills in particular (streamlined by pathfinder) define a character relatively well and how many attacks per second he has is less important than his ability to infiltrate and uncover. The Expert NPC class has come in handier than a wizard in most of the games I ran (long ago) and I think d20 allows for someone like Van Richten even more than 2E did. What little i know about 4E tells me it favors the opposite.
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I can't say I'm thrilled about this.
Sure, we will have the continuation of the story and all... but I don't feel 4th edition is the right thing for Ravenloft.
Better than nothing though.
"You truly see what a person is made of, when you begin to slice into them" - Semirhage
"I am not mad, no matter what you're implying." - Litalia My DMGuild work!
That's not actually true. We weren't getting nothing. The stuff they've put out so far, while nothing I'd use mechanically since I don't play 4e Ravenloft, I really like the new domains (other than the first).
ALSO I'd rather have nothing than bad content that I'll be ignoring anyway. But that's me.
Strahdsbuddy wrote:Rafael, don't you think Ravenloft post-DoD was treated more as its own place rather than a patchwork?
Yeah, on my list 3e RL was the one big reason to try even the entire D&D EDITION.
It was 2e RL that gave me some serious facepalm moments, like to everyone.
(Before everybody thinks I want to be provocative, try running Web of Illusion. TWICE.)
What makes RL great for me is the definitely the treatment the fans are giving it; every single book by the Kargatane and by the Frat was better than any published source.
In fact, I'll be giving part of my RL stuff away, because I never use it.
Strahdsbuddy wrote:Rafael, don't you think Ravenloft post-DoD was treated more as its own place rather than a patchwork?
Yeah, on my list 3e RL was the one big reason to try even the entire D&D EDITION.
It was 2e RL that gave me some serious facepalm moments, like to everyone.
(Before everybody thinks I want to be provocative, try running Web of Illusion. TWICE.)
What makes RL great for me is the definitely the treatment the fans are giving it; every single book by the Kargatane and by the Frat was better than any published source.
In fact, I'll be giving part of my RL stuff away, because I never use it.
To me, Ravenloft is essentially represented by the two AD&D 1E modules, the AD&D 2e boxed sets (esp. the Black Box), the first several Van Richten guides, and the Monstrous Compendium supplements. The Domains of Dread hardback factors in, too, I suppose.
I've never run any of the 2E modules, although I have played through most of the Book of Crypts. Few modules have had any impact on my version of the setting. I don't care for the Requiem stuff- which is why it never happened IMC.
I see the 3E Gaz series as fun but often at variance with my take on the setting; I only use about 50% of that material. There are a lot of things in the Gaz that I don't use: Sheriff Von Zarovich, Falkovnians-as-Nazis, Verbrek, etc. I don't have and don't use the 3E splatbooks for the setting.
Delight is to him- a far, far upward, and inward delight- who against the proud gods and commodores of this earth, ever stands forth his own inexorable self.
ewancummins wrote:I see the 3E Gaz series as fun but often at variance with my take on the setting; I only use about 50% of that material. There are a lot of things in the Gaz that I don't use: Sheriff Von Zarovich, Falkovnians-as-Nazis, Verbrek, etc. I don't have and don't use the 3E splatbooks for the setting.
As a nitpick, the Sheriff is from Champions of Darkness, not one of the Gaz's.
"We're realistic heroes. We're not here to save the world, just nudge the world into a better place."
Strahdsbuddy wrote:Rafael, don't you think Ravenloft post-DoD was treated more as its own place rather than a patchwork?
Yeah, on my list 3e RL was the one big reason to try even the entire D&D EDITION.
It was 2e RL that gave me some serious facepalm moments, like to everyone.
(Before everybody thinks I want to be provocative, try running Web of Illusion. TWICE.)
What makes RL great for me is the definitely the treatment the fans are giving it; every single book by the Kargatane and by the Frat was better than any published source.
In fact, I'll be giving part of my RL stuff away, because I never use it.
To me, Ravenloft is essentially represented by the two AD&D 1E modules, the AD&D 2e boxed sets (esp. the Black Box), the first several Van Richten guides, and the Monstrous Compendium supplements. The Domains of Dread hardback factors in, too, I suppose.
I've never run any of the 2E modules, although I have played through most of the Book of Crypts. Few modules have had any impact on my version of the setting. I don't care for the Requiem stuff- which is why it never happened IMC.
I see the 3E Gaz series as fun but often at variance with my take on the setting; I only use about 50% of that material. There are a lot of things in the Gaz that I don't use: Sheriff Von Zarovich, Falkovnians-as-Nazis, Verbrek, etc. I don't have and don't use the 3E splatbooks for the setting.
Yeah. I might be infamous for operating solely out of the Gaz I and the few adventures settled in Barovia. Staunton Bluffs was a one-time escape. I don't even like Azalin.
ewancummins wrote:I see the 3E Gaz series as fun but often at variance with my take on the setting; I only use about 50% of that material. There are a lot of things in the Gaz that I don't use: Sheriff Von Zarovich, Falkovnians-as-Nazis, Verbrek, etc. I don't have and don't use the 3E splatbooks for the setting.
As a nitpick, the Sheriff is from Champions of Darkness, not one of the Gaz's.
Indeed! That falls under 'splatbooks' , not Gaz- as you note.
Delight is to him- a far, far upward, and inward delight- who against the proud gods and commodores of this earth, ever stands forth his own inexorable self.
That's not actually true. We weren't getting nothing. The stuff they've put out so far, while nothing I'd use mechanically since I don't play 4e Ravenloft, I really like the new domains (other than the first).
New domains?
Where?
"You truly see what a person is made of, when you begin to slice into them" - Semirhage
"I am not mad, no matter what you're implying." - Litalia My DMGuild work!
Dragon magazine published ... I think 4. One in particular was written by one of us, Mousferatu, who took the Winding Road and made a really solid domain out of it.
"One thing I keep in mind, is that although I love the setting, it wasn't doing something right. Case in point, it was discontinued. It wasn't selling enough. If it had been, it wouldn't have been put aside. Now, maybe there's nothing that can be done about that; maybe Ravenloft is and always will be a niche market, and that would require a dedicated company to keep it alive in the face of small profits. And as far as I know, companies don't get big and stay big by following such business plans. So I don't blame them. But if they change the new setting to draw in a bigger audience, I might not like it (depending on the changes), but I'll certainly understand why and won't blame them for trying."
Recall that TSR at the time had several settings being juggled at once, each basically with a separate fanbase that bought books for that setting and that setting alone. The company kinda shot themselves in the foot for that one by supporting more lines than they were frankly able to carry.
My point? I don't see a setting that spawned dozens of novels, carried over two soon to be three (four if we count the original Castle Ravenloft adventures back in 1e) editions of the D&D rules, offers dozens of Van Richten 'takes' on monsters, has a host of adventures, and has one of the most creative and determined fanbases I've ever seen for a roleplaying setting as doing something wrong.
And look- the current model for these settings should in theory allow for a little experimentation here. You don't need to commit to a Ravenloft line year after year here. All you need to do is hit the right points, give the old fanbase the materials they need to play their favorite game in your new rules set, bring in new fans with a curiosity about how to horror might work in their typically fantasy heavy adventures, and your done. No long term investment necessary. There is absolutely a balance that can be found between the old players and the new ones here, but I believe the absolute worst thing you can do is try to make the setting so generic you turn it into Forgotten Realms with werewolves and vampires.
Let's face it, horror is not easy. It speaks to the part of all of us that we don't like to consider. Fear lives on the edges of what we know, to the darker and primal sides of ourselves. Yes, Ravenloft as a game focused very closely on the domains and the people, going into minute details that wouldn't really matter to a description of Toril's city or Krynn's people. But it needed to. You can't have a sense of wrong unless you have a sense of familiarity and safety. As a sideeffect, Ravenloft can serve as a defacto study of human nature- as Mangrum once put it, all the Van Richten monsters are really reflections of the shadows in our own minds- lust, obsession, regret. What made RL evocative and fun to play was, ironic as it might be given the extremely alien nature of the demiplane, was how close a lot of its settings and villains hit to home.
Let me put it another way. I don't know the business model for Hasbro. I do know that their end game is going to be to make money. I can't speak to demographics, I'm just one consumer. What I can speak to is what will sell me on Ravenloft, and by extension get me buying 4e. I don't honestly care if they want to stick with Gothic horror- its a good choice, because it suits the medieval settings the best of the horror genres (in my opinion). What I do care about is if they handle the horror aspect of the game well. Show me how you DO horror in 4e. Impress me with the direction you take the setting. If you feel changes are in order, find a way to impress me with the changes you make. Don't make me accept what you do, make me stand up and approve of it!
That's the key here. I can go two ways on this, as potentially the entire 'old school' fanbase can. If you inspire the young bloods while repecting the folks who were around when the setting was young, hey that's a huge victory! But walk softly here- tear up too much, reject too much of what came before...well, there's always pathfinder. Between the easily converted material in 3e and that as an alternative to 4e D&D....well, I can either bring a whole group of old schoolers into a new edition, or I can send them into the arms of my competition. For my part, I don't believe you have to cater to a broad audience and lose your old fanbase. Like a Disney cartoon that has a more mature sense of humor, its possible to let both the new audience and the old enjoy what you have.
Correct. 4 domains. 3 in Dragon, one in Dungeon, and also a Dragon article on the Vistani. Which reminds me, I should put those into Mistipedia and the Drawing Room.
and now I have..
"We're realistic heroes. We're not here to save the world, just nudge the world into a better place."
Bluebomber4evr wrote: I'm just pointing out that retconning all the way to the original boxed set is rather extreme, and it's not unreasonable to think they may do the same thing to Ravenloft. Whether that's a good thing or a bad thing is a matter of taste, of course. I've never been a fan of huge retcons, personally.
That's cool; I can appreciate not liking retcons. Taste, while not objective, is how most of us decide what we do and don't like. There's nothing objective or logical about my dislike of Dark Sun after all.
I could see the possibility that, as Jester had inferred above (I'd missed his post while doing mine - stupid interruptions! ), they could decide to drop domains (maybe even as many as you said) while not officially declaring them no longer in existence. I've been personally wondering if the earlier Domains articles are supposed be domains already linked to Ravenloft or isolated domains, as it is. Marmell's Lonesome Road seemed to suggest that that one at least could SOMETIMES (but not often) lead to other domains and even the Prime Material.
I could see why that would be really annoying to a lot of people. But then you gotta remember that my favourite domain has never received much in-game attention so I'm used to winging it anyway. I've also dropped a lot of domains along the way. I've personally never seen the need to salvage stuff I consider bad material; there's enough to do as a DM without that. Again, all a matter of my taste.
Anyway, no hard feelings I hope? My intention was never to offend - if I have in any way, I do offer my sincere apologies.
I was never offended
Jester of the FoS wrote:Being in a box and a stand-alone game could be a good thing or a bad thing.
They could be releasing the game as a stand-alone product to remove some of the action hero elements from PCs and add a touch more "vulnerable everyman" to characters. The game could be separate because they want simpler characters and to provide PC options unrelated to the base game, and archetypes more common horror games. After all, Mike Mearls was the author responsible for Fantasy Flight Games product Darkness & Dread, which shares alot of similarities with the Ravenloft philosophy. The yet unrevealed physical product could be a Tarokka deck, with rules for fortune telling or perhaps character creation via cards. The hinted rules for playing vampires and werewolves might be the result of Powers Checks, with avoiding corruption and evil being part of the game so alignment has consequence.
Or
It could be a game with PC vampires and werewolves, rampant corruption and taint rules akin to the Heroes of Horror supplement. With the same grasp of gothic horror as the 3e Castle Ravenloft book that seemed to think demons, devils, and rampant use of aberrations fit the mood of the castle.
Given that they've confirmed that it will have rules to play vampires, werewolves and ghosts, it already looks like the latter. :\
Bluebomber4evr: The Justice, not you, since 2002.
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I agree with pretty much everything you're saying Nothri. And everything you're saying pretty much presents Ravenloft as a niche market, as I speculated before.
I can't add much more than that; I think you're pretty much bang on with a lot of what you've said.
Staunton Bluffs was a one-time escape. I don't even like Azalin. 
), they could decide to drop domains (maybe even as many as you said) while not officially declaring them no longer in existence. I've been personally wondering if the earlier Domains articles are supposed be domains already linked to Ravenloft or isolated domains, as it is. Marmell's Lonesome Road seemed to suggest that that one at least could SOMETIMES (but not often) lead to other domains and even the Prime Material. 