Café de Nuit

With every edition update of Dungeons and Dragons comes the topic of updating Ravenloft. It's an inevitable and potentially exhaustive discussion, especially on fan sites such is this. And there's nothing wrong with that. But lately I have been thinking "Is it really necessary to update Ravenloft to 5E, outside of that shout-out through Curse of Strahd?". "Does Ravenloft really need it, or is it really just us fans wanting it?"

Of course, there are pros and cons to a setting update. What are they? I'm asking you to fill in those blanks, to make your case, to yay or nay the hypothetical update, to thumbs up or thumbs down the black magic involved in its resurrection.

The way I see it (on February 28, 2019),

Pros (quick hit, to start the conversation):

- The next generation of Dungeons and Dragons players (DMs included) get a "new" setting to explore and customise to their heart's delight.

- Related to the first point, these players get a new set of themes and crunch to play in and under, one that is currently lacking in the 5E lineup of products. Gothic/fantasy/weird horror; PC morality check valves; Fear, Horror, and Madness rules that can be thickened or thinned from the rules found in the 5E Dungeon Master's guide (as found in Chapter 9: Dungeon Master's Workshop); culture shock and isolation (the varying cultural levels of the domains); and more, most of which can be carried over into existing settings or, all of which can be translated into tools usable for homebrew world building.

- With the two different versions of RL already in print (2E/3E; weekend in hell/native), the DM's and players have more choices to choose from when it comes to personalising the setting. This is a unique quality not found (offered) in any other campaign setting. The Misty Borders exist both IC and OOC...


Cons (to start off the conversation):

- The risk of alienating old school fans with too big of changes, or, further definition of the undefinable (ie: Curse of Strahd, but on a potentially grander scale). Which begs the question, if you don't want too much change, then do you really want Ravenloft outside of your current head/table canon?

- With the two different versions of RL already in print (2E/3E; weekend in hell/native), the DM's and players have more choices to choose from when it comes to personalising the setting. This is a unique quality not found (offered) in any other campaign setting. The Misty Borders exist both IC and OOC...

If both of these offerings have been offered already, then what else is there to offer? Do the designers choose one edition over the other? Do they offer both? Do they scrap it all and build from scratch?

If there's too much tinkering then this unique factor of RL is lost, and it becomes just another diorama. See first con. If it's not enough tinkering then what's the point in an edition update? Just offer the fans a pdf of the old school stuff, or, possibly give them an opportunity to buy print-on-demand.

A 5E Dark Sun, doubling-down as a vehicle to introduce/showcase psionics to 5E (a new system of mechanics), makes sense. Damn straight. But RL? Is the PC morality mechanic (DP check) and its themes enough to justify a whole new edition?

These are just short shots of Devil's Advocacy, just to hopefully get some involvement here. I'm curious as to what other fans of Ravenloft think.

In all truthfulness, I'm 60-40 against a new edition, for the simple fact that a) I have a full toolbox now and I don't really need anything else (rules for Fear, Horror, and Sanity came included in DMG, as I said), and b) right now I can't really see anything new or unique to add to Ravenloft to warrant a full-on new edition...that doesn't piss on the past editions.

I do love the idea of a Dungeons and Dragons 5E World Building book aimed at DMs (that includes all sorts of optional mechanics such as the Powers Check), and/or a big bastard book of D&D settings, with about 160 minimum-crunch pages dedicated to each of the TSR worlds spread out over two or three tomes (DM's table-thumping background bibles), but new E RL? I'm not sold on the idea just yet.

Edited a whack of times so that my say isn't the only say

I'd like to see Ravenloft be brought fully into 5e. I love the setting, and most of my friends don't play the older editions. I think there's so much more to Ravenloft than just Barovia, and I'd like to see WotC support that.

Also, I'm really tired of everything 5e being Forgotten Realms.

I personally don't care whether Ravenloft is brought into 5e or not because I'm sticking with 3.x since that's the version I know best and have already spent a fortune getting the books for. Plus I prefer 3.x mechanics. I'd still love to get all the 2e Ravenloft sources as PDF to familiarize myself with all the lore that never got an adequate explanation in 3.x.

Most people here play older editions, with 3,5/PF being the most common.

But indeed we miss all the new players jumping in with 5e.

For all new editions, I think we should encourage a conversion program for converting the main stuff to 5e.

Get the 2e/3e era fluff, and here's the 5e crunch.

Jester did a good job with 4e, we should convert and host the same for 5e.

I would play 5E, but I'm not shelling out money for new rules when I am happy with older editions (For Dungeons and Dragons, I use 3E rules here on FoS, and B/X or core rules AD&D 2E at the tabletop).

A free rules conversion looks like a better deal than one that costs money, and would be just as useful if it were as good as the past work done by Jester and others here.

Joël of the FoS wrote:Most people here play older editions, with 3,5/PF being the most common.

But indeed we miss all the new players jumping in with 5e.

For all new editions, I think we should encourage a conversion program for converting the main stuff to 5e.

Get the 2e/3e era fluff, and here's the 5e crunch.

Jester did a good job with 4e, we should convert and host the same for 5e.

Good point(s).

There is official product support/edition updates, and there is community support/edition updates. With the right touch the latter may be enough for some.

Thoughts from the 5E crowd?

I'm a 2E grinder to 5E wannabe/rookie (with 3E I was out in the cold, looking through the frosted window at all the warm and happy gamers, with a backpack of the core books and the RL line of products haha With 4E I -cone of silence-), so I got no problem digging through what I got (all 2E and 3E Ravenloft products I'm pretty sure, and all 5E books to date) for brainstorming/shadow support/fact-finding purposes, should anybody else want to take a crack at a 5E version/update. I'm just not much of a writer (I'm currently sitting on 17 pages of notes for a new cluster that I intend to submit to QtR but can't seem to get it together!) and I'm a bloody gimp when it comes to technical stuff...

I don't think I'll ever switch to 5e. I'm too set in my ways at this point. Maybe if I were to DM for my kids (they recently played their first 5e game and enjoyed it), I'd force myself to learn, but my kids are not into horror, and prone to nightmares from scary stuff, so it wouldn't be Ravenloft.

With that said, I don't have a problem converting between editions, and really what I hunger for is story. If that story is dressed in 5e clothes, so be it. So, an update to the setting would be great, even with some retcons, as I'm free to ignore them. New modules would be even better. 5e updates to older modules, I don't need.

But as a Ravenloft evangelist, I'd want to bring in as many new players to the setting as possible. For that, a 5e update of the campaign setting would be key. Imagine a new player, who plays CoS and wants more. There's the dmguild, yes, but nothing official beyond Barovia. If they are really committed, they might dig up the 2e/3e stuff and search for a conversion guide here or elsewhere on the net, but that's not as likely as them just picking up a different setting that has been officially released instead.

I'm wondering now if it's not a better idea to have a rules-free Ravenloft Campaign Setting book, just to immortalise the setting and bridge all editions, past, present, and future. Further metaplots and the like can be (and in my mind should be) left to the table and/or fans such as those that visit places like this to offer up as community help/options for struggling DMs. Yeah, a focus on "non-canon" Ravenloft, or, "table canon" Ravenloft...the way a D&D setting should be, IMO. If any of you wizards are out there...haha

A Ravenloft book of crunch ("Clockwork Ravenloft" an off-shoot 'zine/community project in the vein of QtR?) would be more easily managed in a modular sort of way for those editions not yet corrupted, err, converted...?

I totally agree, Gonzoron. I wouldn't have bothered picking up 5e if it wasn't such a hassle to get my friends at the LGS to play anything else. New modules are a must. Ravenloft has too many story opportunities to let Castle Ravenloft etc. be the only thing people explore.

I think a Ravenloft crunch book would be nice, but other than an official version of Half-Vistani for 5e, I can't think of anything that really needs to be converted. Maybe some of the setting specific monsters?

Zujenia wrote:I totally agree, Gonzoron. I wouldn't have bothered picking up 5e if it wasn't such a hassle to get my friends at the LGS to play anything else. New modules are a must. Ravenloft has too many story opportunities to let Castle Ravenloft etc. be the only thing people explore.

I think a Ravenloft crunch book would be nice, but other than an official version of Half-Vistani for 5e, I can't think of anything that really needs to be converted. Maybe some of the setting specific monsters?

Personally, I think it's mostly trim that has to happen to bring it to 5E. Looks to be generally smooth waters, from my quick glance (at ol' Black here, with one eye on 3E Core).

Updated NPC stats, a rehash of player's handbook rules catered to RL (ie: turning undead/channel divinity), altered spells, tweaking the Stages of Corruption, re-stat of Magical Items/Artifacts/Relics, Outcast Rating re-skinned, backgrounds added, Fear/Horror/Madness tables shuffled a bit (5E DM optional rule potentially tweaked and inserted),...doesn't look to be a whole lot on the surface of it, no.

Like I mentioned earlier, it's almost better to just redact the crunch of the earlier editions and play by the 5E Core rules (the first time I read the 'Monster Hunter's Compendiums I read them straight through almost like an IC book, skipping all the rules. I went back the second time to take them). But then the new players have that issue as mentioned above: no official support might mean a more likely non-investment in the setting

Joël of the FoS wrote:For all new editions, I think we should encourage a conversion program for converting the main stuff to 5e.

Get the 2e/3e era fluff, and here's the 5e crunch.

Jester did a good job with 4e, we should convert and host the same for 5e.

I've actually been thinking about doing this for awhile; I figured that someone must have already taken a run at it though.

Personally, i am ignoring 5th edition, no matter what settings are there.
I worked hardly in 3.x collecting both manuals and homebrew materials and i have an huge amount of new spells, classes, feats, prestige classes and so on.
My players prefer 3.x because i've run a Forgetten Realms campaign that stick us together and i don't see the point of buying new core books and converting all the materials.

If 5th wants to jump into Ravenloft I'd prefer the jump is into lore and not rules

Joël of the FoS wrote:Jester did a good job with 4e, we should convert and host the same for 5e.

You're forgetting that I DID already do that for Ravenloft. I just didn't host it here:
Heroes of the Mists



Although, I did tap you guys for feedback, and some of the early drafts were posted here:
http://fraternityofshadows.com/forum/vi ... f=1&t=8786

Jester of the FoS wrote:

Joël of the FoS wrote:Jester did a good job with 4e, we should convert and host the same for 5e.

You're forgetting that I DID already do that for Ravenloft. I just didn't host it here:
Heroes of the Mists

Yeah, I was going to say something, but since I forgot it was on dmsguild and didn't see it here, I thought it was a fever dream... Really need to put a link to it somewhere around here.

Five wrote:With every edition update of Dungeons and Dragons comes the topic of updating Ravenloft. It's an inevitable and potentially exhaustive discussion, especially on fan sites such is this. And there's nothing wrong with that. But lately I have been thinking "Is it really necessary to update Ravenloft to 5E, outside of that shout-out through Curse of Strahd?". "Does Ravenloft really need it, or is it really just us fans wanting it?"

It really is just us fans.

Gone are the days when D&D would support a half-dozen settings as independent product lines. That just doesn't work. It splits the audience and after a couple campaign setting books, sales would drop.

The hard truth is that the majority of fans (something like 60+%) run homebrew. So any setting is taking a piece out of the remaining <40%.


Ravenloft is getting as much official support as it ever will in 5e: it had an introductory adventure (Curse of Strahd) and was added to the supported settings on the DMsGuild, letting fans freely and legally publish content there. So the people who are the biggest fans of the setting can be in charge of updating its mechanics.
Which is pretty damn good. Better than Dragonlance or Dark Sun can say.

I'm a big fan of the Guild. And I did a little Ravenloft stuff there.
I did a big rules conversion product, Heroes of the Mists. (I'm also working on a revised version as we speak.)
And the monster book: Children of the Night.

Because I had the advantage of writing it, it's exactly what I want from a Ravenloft update.
Plus, as I often say elsewhere, it's not like Wizards of the Coast has magic book writing powers. Their content is not automatically better and more balanced than a fan or 3rd Party Product. 3PP were generally terrible in the early '00s. But most physically published ones have improved immensely, as they know people are more discerning.