Darkest Dungeon inspiration - Fear, Horror, Madness saves
Posted: Wed Apr 01, 2020 5:08 pm
To preface, I have been out of gaming for some years, but prior to played for over 20 years. I primarily DM'd, with strong focus on Ravenloft, with some Planescape, and Greyhawk - Temple of Elemental Evil focus (which I loosely tied Tharizdun to the Dark Powers). Of those gaming years, I stuck with 2.0 and 2.5. I was briefly a PC in a 3.5 game prior to taking my sabbatical from D&D, and was impressed by the system and have since reada lot more about 3.5 (especially 3.5 Ravenloft) in case I want/get to one day return to DM'ing. If I DM again, I will stick with 3.5 vs 5; what can I say, I suppose I am reluctant to change. So my question is geared towards those still playing 3.5, or at least pretty familiar with it (especially Ravenloft). I did briefly run 3.5 as a DM, before taking my time off, but I would like help from experienced DMs who know 3.5.
I am a big fan of the console game Darkest Dungeon, and thought that incorporating a similar mechanic of a PC having a chance of becoming virtuous in a similar way to when a hero in DD does. For those unfamiliar with DD, each hero accumulates stress on a meter (0 to 200), and if the stress becomes high enough (100+) they get a random mental affliction and suffer lasting penalties until they rest and recover outside a dungeon mission (similar to failed horror or madness checks); afflicted heroes can still be used on future dungeon missions before they become cured, though. But they also get a small chance to "pass the saving throw" and become temporarily virtuous instead of afflicted and get a random boon until the end of the dungeon and the hero's stress meter goes back to around 50 or so, and can't become afflicted no matter how high their stress becomes until the next dungeon mission, though they can suffer a heart attack (see below). The chance of becoming virtuous vs afflicted is rather low though, like 75% afflicted and 25% virtuous; it's either afflicted or virtuous, nothing in between. When a hero's stress rises to 200 regardless of being afflicted or virtuous, the hero suffers a heart attack becomes on "deaths door", and can die on a single hit. The game is brutally and unforgivably fun, and it's certainly gothic horror based, mostly in a Lovecraft way.
I think it would be fun to incorporate a similar mechanic for a small chance for PC's to have their character become virtuous with fear, horror, and madness saves, sort of like a "critical hit" for a passed save maybe. Ravenloft is a fantastic setting and I always loved the added features that it brings, but it's extra unforgiving mechanics can deter and frustrate PCs to a point where they dislike the system and won't want to play it; I always found in my 20+ years of DMing, and many of you likely do as well, it's a special type of player who likes being a PC in Ravenloft, since the cards are so stacked against them far more than in other settings (especially since magic and magic items are supposed to be much more scarce). I think adding this would be a fun way to bring a little brightness to PCs in a world of oppressive doom, it would be as if the character doesn't just shrug off the terrifying or horrifying event, but becomes temporarily and inwardly rallied to overcome adversity
So here are some ideas I have:
- maybe becoming virtuous is only available to well passed horror or madness checks
- or can only happen on critically passed checks, natural 20, or maybe 19 -20 with a feat, and if the check passes by a certain amount
- a sliding scale of benefits in the same way of minor, moderate, and major with fear, horror, and madness. Each category can be random on d4 like the horror and madness.
- there could be separate boons for a critically or well passed save depending on whether it is fear, horror, or madness.
- some boon ideas could be increased curing rate or immediate curing of an existing horror or madness effect. Maybe a temporary morale benefit for well passed or critical passed fear checks.
- good characters get a higher chance to be virtuous, evil a lower (perhaps much lower or even no chance), neutral no bonus. An Innocent may get an extra bonus beyond good bonus. If this idea of used, a separate roll would probably have to be made as good characters get penalties to horror saves and evil a bonus, according to the stock rules. Maybe the virtue chance only happens on a natural 20 on the fear, horror, or madness save, and then the separate roll happens to see what virtue happens, if any - maybe a chance of nothing still can happen, it could be a sliding scale where at the lowest nothing happens. My reasoning for this extra roll is this: being virtuous should be geared more towards good characters, as the term implies. Neutrals who experience a brief moment of virtue might be swayed towards goodness and light, though it's less likely to happen, and even less so for evils, but it does reinforce the saying that "goodness is it's own reward", and the neutrals and rare evils who experience the virtue may reflect how they felt and use that experience to turn towards good; after all, the mechanic reflects the above saying.
-if the previous idea is used, maybe the virtue benefit ends prematurely if the characters behaves in an evil or selfish way. It really would give an PC a reason to role play an evil or neutral character to reflect on their own morality.
- the benefits likely are much more short lived than failed save effects. Or perhaps the effects of well passed fear checks last the shortest with smallest benefits, horror duration and effects are better, and madness benefits can be best. Maybe the benefits of horror can include a chance of the fear ones instead, and the benefits of madness can include the chance of fear, horror, and madness effects, so only the best benefits are slimmer and only available to those who witness the worst of events.
I know that this may be daunting or the idea of it disagreeable to those who prefer the simplicity of 5th ed, which is to my understanding why 5th was developed, and I admittedly know little to nothing about (only read a little about it), but I sort of like the mechanics of 3.5 that can make situations more precise even if it's more tedious to handle the mechanics.
I am a big fan of the console game Darkest Dungeon, and thought that incorporating a similar mechanic of a PC having a chance of becoming virtuous in a similar way to when a hero in DD does. For those unfamiliar with DD, each hero accumulates stress on a meter (0 to 200), and if the stress becomes high enough (100+) they get a random mental affliction and suffer lasting penalties until they rest and recover outside a dungeon mission (similar to failed horror or madness checks); afflicted heroes can still be used on future dungeon missions before they become cured, though. But they also get a small chance to "pass the saving throw" and become temporarily virtuous instead of afflicted and get a random boon until the end of the dungeon and the hero's stress meter goes back to around 50 or so, and can't become afflicted no matter how high their stress becomes until the next dungeon mission, though they can suffer a heart attack (see below). The chance of becoming virtuous vs afflicted is rather low though, like 75% afflicted and 25% virtuous; it's either afflicted or virtuous, nothing in between. When a hero's stress rises to 200 regardless of being afflicted or virtuous, the hero suffers a heart attack becomes on "deaths door", and can die on a single hit. The game is brutally and unforgivably fun, and it's certainly gothic horror based, mostly in a Lovecraft way.
I think it would be fun to incorporate a similar mechanic for a small chance for PC's to have their character become virtuous with fear, horror, and madness saves, sort of like a "critical hit" for a passed save maybe. Ravenloft is a fantastic setting and I always loved the added features that it brings, but it's extra unforgiving mechanics can deter and frustrate PCs to a point where they dislike the system and won't want to play it; I always found in my 20+ years of DMing, and many of you likely do as well, it's a special type of player who likes being a PC in Ravenloft, since the cards are so stacked against them far more than in other settings (especially since magic and magic items are supposed to be much more scarce). I think adding this would be a fun way to bring a little brightness to PCs in a world of oppressive doom, it would be as if the character doesn't just shrug off the terrifying or horrifying event, but becomes temporarily and inwardly rallied to overcome adversity
So here are some ideas I have:
- maybe becoming virtuous is only available to well passed horror or madness checks
- or can only happen on critically passed checks, natural 20, or maybe 19 -20 with a feat, and if the check passes by a certain amount
- a sliding scale of benefits in the same way of minor, moderate, and major with fear, horror, and madness. Each category can be random on d4 like the horror and madness.
- there could be separate boons for a critically or well passed save depending on whether it is fear, horror, or madness.
- some boon ideas could be increased curing rate or immediate curing of an existing horror or madness effect. Maybe a temporary morale benefit for well passed or critical passed fear checks.
- good characters get a higher chance to be virtuous, evil a lower (perhaps much lower or even no chance), neutral no bonus. An Innocent may get an extra bonus beyond good bonus. If this idea of used, a separate roll would probably have to be made as good characters get penalties to horror saves and evil a bonus, according to the stock rules. Maybe the virtue chance only happens on a natural 20 on the fear, horror, or madness save, and then the separate roll happens to see what virtue happens, if any - maybe a chance of nothing still can happen, it could be a sliding scale where at the lowest nothing happens. My reasoning for this extra roll is this: being virtuous should be geared more towards good characters, as the term implies. Neutrals who experience a brief moment of virtue might be swayed towards goodness and light, though it's less likely to happen, and even less so for evils, but it does reinforce the saying that "goodness is it's own reward", and the neutrals and rare evils who experience the virtue may reflect how they felt and use that experience to turn towards good; after all, the mechanic reflects the above saying.
-if the previous idea is used, maybe the virtue benefit ends prematurely if the characters behaves in an evil or selfish way. It really would give an PC a reason to role play an evil or neutral character to reflect on their own morality.
- the benefits likely are much more short lived than failed save effects. Or perhaps the effects of well passed fear checks last the shortest with smallest benefits, horror duration and effects are better, and madness benefits can be best. Maybe the benefits of horror can include a chance of the fear ones instead, and the benefits of madness can include the chance of fear, horror, and madness effects, so only the best benefits are slimmer and only available to those who witness the worst of events.
I know that this may be daunting or the idea of it disagreeable to those who prefer the simplicity of 5th ed, which is to my understanding why 5th was developed, and I admittedly know little to nothing about (only read a little about it), but I sort of like the mechanics of 3.5 that can make situations more precise even if it's more tedious to handle the mechanics.