Café de Nuit

I have posted the versions of these two artifacts to talk about the changes that have happened.

The description for the Holy Symbol of the Ravenkind fron Expedition to Castle Ravenloft and previous products was

The Holy Symbol of Ravenkind is a platinum amulet shaped like the sun, with a large crystal embedded in its center. Around the crystal are inscribed symbols of light and truth.

The description for the Icon of Ravenloft was

The Icon of Ravenloft is a small carving of a raven made from the purest silver. It stands about 12 inches tall, 6 inches wide, and 1/4 inch thick.

For some reason the illustrator in that book made the HSoR golden (or bronze) and the its history was

It was first used by a paladin named Lugdana, who was among the earliest settlers of the valley. According to legend, a giant celestial raven—or an angel in the form of a raven delivered the Holy Symbol to Lugdana so she could use it to root out a nest of vampires.

hmmm... I thought Strahd was the first vampyr...

The same history is repeated in Curse of Strahd

As we know from Vampires from the Mist the HSoR was created by the Most High Priest Kir of the Church of Andral, giving his life for it's creation, one year before Barovia entered the Mists. In Realm of Terror box set the HSoR was once worn by the high priest of Castle Ravenloft.

The Legends as I remember said that the HSoR was holding a piece of the sun. That could be read metaphorically for its Sunlight power, but if read literally as I had and as I believe it was portayed by Stephen Fabian the crystal should be white and not red. I must say that Stephen Fabians image from Roots of Evil for both the HSoR and Icon of Ravenloft are my favourite ones, I really like the symbols of light and truth on the artifact. The one the same artist had made for the black box was copied by the artist of Expedition to Castle Ravenloft but painted it in the wrong color (most unfortunate). The one in Curse of Strahd looks more cosmetic in design, looks a bit elvish too. As for the Icon of Ravenloft it is not a raven anymore although still of the same size.

The Icon of Raven loft is a 12-inch-tall statuette made of the purest silver, weighing 10 pounds. It depicts a cleric kneeling in supplication.

Which ones are your favourite versions? Mine are obvious I guess (A1)

And I found an old image I made from a Stephen Fabian illustration, it is the mural that Jander Sunstar restored in Vampires of the Mists I guess the Goblyn king is the successor of Durukan the Unstoppable aka Dorian, named like this perhaps because the Tergs where demon worshippers. But if the mural Tergs left Barovia in 347 BC then the Symbol of the Ravenkind couldn't have been created in 350 BC by the High Priest Kir. Now I am confused...

If it is a symbol, then by definition it's not just one particular item. It's a symbol. The clerics of Andral presumably used this symbol (in whatever variation) all along, and the physical object made and used by the last hierophant of Barovia is a very powerful example of the symbol in physical form. So there's no contradiction.


As far as the icon goes, mark me down squarely in the raven statuette camp.

RE First Vampyr:

1 Strahd is wrong or lying. He's evil. Why wouldn't he lie?

2 Strahd means First Vampyr as in first among the undead, the most powerful, the prince (first) of vampires.

3 There were no true vampires in what became Barovia before Strahd, and the creatures that the ancient paladin destroyed were Vampyres (the living sort), pseudo-vampires, ghouls, or something else.

ewancummins wrote:If it is a symbol, then by definition it's not just one particular item. It's a symbol. The clerics of Andral presumably used this symbol (in whatever variation) all along, and the physical object made and used by the last hierophant of Barovia is a very powerful example of the symbol in physical form. So there's no contradiction.

You are correct about the definition of symbol

But I think the definition of holy symbol in most games is an object

A holy symbol is a representation of a god or pantheon. It might be an amulet depicting a symbol representing a deity, the same symbol carefully engraved or inlaid as an emblem on a shield, or a tiny box holding a fragment of a sacred relic. A cleric or paladin can use a holy symbol as a spellcasting focus. To use the symbol in this way, the caster must hold it in hand, wear it visibly, or bear it on a shield.

ewancummins wrote:If it is a symbol, then by definition it's not just one particular item. It's a symbol. The clerics of Andral presumably used this symbol (in whatever variation) all along, and the physical object made and used by the last hierophant of Barovia is a very powerful example of the symbol in physical form. So there's no contradiction.

You are correct about the definition of symbol

But I think the definition of holy symbol in most games is an object

A holy symbol is a representation of a god or pantheon. It might be an amulet depicting a symbol representing a deity, the same symbol carefully engraved or inlaid as an emblem on a shield, or a tiny box holding a fragment of a sacred relic. A cleric or paladin can use a holy symbol as a spellcasting focus. To use the symbol in this way, the caster must hold it in hand, wear it visibly, or bear it on a shield.

But also under the definition of symbol, the said holy symbol is being inscribed with symbols of light and truth, so my question is which symbols of light and truth do you prefer for your version of the Holy Symbol of the Ravenkind? Also the symbol of Andral is not the symbol of Ravenkind as the Holy Symbol of Ravenkind was seen by High Priest Kir in a vision.

ewancummins wrote:RE First Vampyr:

1 Strahd is wrong or lying. He's evil. Why wouldn't he lie?

2 Strahd means First Vampyr as in first among the undead, the most powerful, the prince (first) of vampires.

3 There were no true vampires in what became Barovia before Strahd, and the creatures that the ancient paladin destroyed were Vampyres (the living sort), pseudo-vampires, ghouls, or something else.

I actually do this in reverse. Mythologically, Strahd is the first vampire (and also isn't technically undead). The story about the origin of the HSoR is the falsity. Its true origin is unknown, Strahd's ancestors or someone else came up with a story about fending off some kind of ancestral enemy, which later warped to be about destroying vampires after Barovia started to have a vampire problem when it came to the Demiplane of Terror. Making up the provenance of symbols and artifacts is a long and storied tradition in reality and fiction.

Mephisto wrote:

ewancummins wrote:If it is a symbol, then by definition it's not just one particular item. It's a symbol. The clerics of Andral presumably used this symbol (in whatever variation) all along, and the physical object made and used by the last hierophant of Barovia is a very powerful example of the symbol in physical form. So there's no contradiction.

You are correct about the definition of symbol

But I think the definition of holy symbol in most games is an object

A holy symbol is a representation of a god or pantheon. It might be an amulet depicting a symbol representing a deity, the same symbol carefully engraved or inlaid as an emblem on a shield, or a tiny box holding a fragment of a sacred relic. A cleric or paladin can use a holy symbol as a spellcasting focus. To use the symbol in this way, the caster must hold it in hand, wear it visibly, or bear it on a shield.

But also under the definition of symbol, the said holy symbol is being inscribed with symbols of light and truth, so my question is which symbols of light and truth do you prefer for your version of the Holy Symbol of the Ravenkind? Also the symbol of Andral is not the symbol of Ravenkind as the Holy Symbol of Ravenkind was seen by High Priest Kir in a vision.

My faboes:

ICON: The Raven, no contest.

HSoR: They are all nice. I prefer the Fabian illo. My son likes C,which looks like ''a grinder" to him.


And he loves traps.

Also mimics.

Holy Mimic of Ravenkind?

A god or cult might have several symbols associated with it.

I've always assumed that ravens were sacred to Andral/whatever gods the ancient Barovians worshipped. Likely, divine messengers or psychopomps.

As for High Priest Kir's vision, maybe the HSoR is a special symbol that represents inner mysteries of the old Barovian religion? Perhaps the vision of this heavenly symbol was granted to an earlier priest or prophet, long before Kir's day, but no one had been shown it since? And perhaps Barovian artists simply depicted it as a sunburst, as in the mural that Jander restored? Kir was granted the vision and the power to make a physical representation of the symbol, one which carried great supernatural power. That should cover the apparent discrepancy in the lore.

I can't see any good reason that they changed the Icon from a raven to a kneeling cleric. Meh. It's still a raven for me.

My favorite Holy Symbol is the real-life Beadle and Grimm version.... (photo credit to Jester)