Café de Nuit

So I plan to run Ravenloft for the first time in my GM career. Almost all people on YouTube give very high praises to Van Richten's Guide 5e. And I'm not talking about newbies, but about people, who claim to be old Ravenloft mega fans (and are very knowledgeable about the world).

But on this forum people don't seem to like it. I'm really confused... People here seem mostly to recommend 2e or 3e books.

Currently, I only have money to buy 1 max 2 books. So which edition and what books are You recommending and why?

The main difference appears to be in the characterization of the campaign setting. In the 3e line of books, the Demiplane of Dread had several clusters of adjoining domains, and domains within a cluster were not separated by the Mists. This led to inter-domain politics and the feeling of being in an actual world, albeit a small one bounded by a mysterious fog. It felt more like a true campaign setting, where heroes could be native-born denizens of the world.

In 5e, the campaign setting has moved back toward an earlier style, where each domain is an isolated prison that the PCs will feel trapped in. This is a viable style of play, but it feels less like a world. In a world, there is the hope of fighting to make things better. In a prison plane, the main hope is for escape. The feel of artificiality is stronger. It is still present in 3e, but perhaps subtler.

On top of that, once one gets attached to how places and characters were presented in the older versions, it can be jarring to see them reinterpreted. Changes to old Ravenloft that don't link up with the old canon can evoke some strong reactions.

I should admit, that I am drawing my comparisons based on the commentary of others. I have not seen a copy of VRGtRL first hand, and I have more attachment to 3e than 5e in general, so I am already biased before considering Ravenloft specifically.

Do you know what sort of game you are intending to run? How you want to present the world? Those are kind of abstract questions, but if you have a particular inclination, it might inform which version of Ravenloft is most in line with what you are going for.

Well said Wolfglide, I believe the answer you gave is truly an objective one.

SInce I am one of those people who are against VRGtR I have to add that Ravenloft as a setting was created in 1990 a year before I started playing AD&D. I grew up with the old version of the Ravenloft setting waiting eagerly for a new product, with the last 2nd edition product being released in 2000.

Then 3rd edition followed in 2001 until 2005 continuing where the 2nd edition had stopped with all previous gaming material being canon. So you have already 15 years of Ravenloft products detailing characters, places and events. Wizards of the Coast then published Expedition to Castle Ravenloft in 2006, a predecessor of Curse of Strahd in many ways, but not as an official Ravenloft product.

4th edition followed only with articles in Dragon Magazine introducing the Shadowfell as well as some new domains and reintroducing or adapting some old stuff (Strahd, Lord Soth, The Headless Horseman etc). But for reasons I don't know the 4th edition didn't have the amount of previous editions.

With the success of 5e Curse of Strahd the setting was resurrected or for a better word reincarnated into something different, a reboot that changed much of the old lore, events and characters (even the setting itself) that I and some people here grew up with. Some in this forum were already adults even when the setting was first created in 1990, some even played the original Ravenloft adventure when it was released in 1983 .

So around 60+ 2edition products as well as dozens of Dungeon Magazine and Dragon Magazine articles and over 20 3rd edition products are reinterpreted, changed completely or ignored in VRGtR. This is why there is so much beef towards VRGtR in this forum, because it was something a lot of us waited for years but were disappointed with the result.

But as Wolfglide wrote you choose what is better for your game, without sentimental restrictions as some of us here. Any edition is a new experience to you and you can be more open minded than me in choosing what you feel fits your campaign.

For a full official product list you can look here https://www.fraternityofshadows.com/wik ... e_Timeline

Since you can't afford to buy more than 1 or 2 books I recommend Curse of Strahd (the non-racist version, that doesn't depict Vistani as alcoholic thugs), although I don't like some stuff in it (from an in-world "historical" perspective). it is a good module with many adventures and opportunities to enrich it with free online unofficial Ravenloft products.

If things change and you can buy more I recommend the 3rd Edition Ravenloft Campaign Setting and all the Ravenloft Gazetteers (I, II, III, IV, V). The Gazetteers are full with Easter Eggs from 2e and established Ravenloft more as a world.

As for 2e there are so many great products or products with "historical" in-world events which is hard to choose, but for sure I recommend the Evil Eye adventure which I believe is favoured by many. I also like the Van Richten's Guide series especially the one on Fiends and the Vistani.

In the few 4th edition things out there I recommend Domains of Dread: The Endless Road from Dungeon Magazine #174 and Fair Barovia from Dungeon Magazine #207 which can be tied up with Curse of Strahd.
As an all-time Lord Soth fan since I began playing AD&D I also recommend The Life of Soth from Dragon Magazine #416 is a good read for the uninitiated but with not many gaming options.

Enjoy!

PS
As for those old timers on You Tube who praise VRGtR some may really like it and some may just advertise it because they get free products, you never know.

Wolfglide wrote: Sun Mar 13, 2022 6:34 pm Do you know what sort of game you are intending to run? How you want to present the world? Those are kind of abstract questions, but if you have a particular inclination, it might inform which version of Ravenloft is most in line with what you are going for.

Well, I think I would prefer something akin to:

Wolfglide wrote: Sun Mar 13, 2022 6:34 pm In the 3e line of books, the Demiplane of Dread had several clusters of adjoining domains, and domains within a cluster were not separated by the Mists. This led to inter-domain politics and the feeling of being in an actual world, albeit a small one bounded by a mysterious fog. It felt more like a true campaign setting, where heroes could be native-born denizens of the world.

Because...

Wolfglide wrote: Sun Mar 13, 2022 6:34 pm In 5e, the campaign setting has moved back toward an earlier style, where each domain is an isolated prison that the PCs will feel trapped in.

This has the danger of turning into a vicious cycle of PC's entering one domain fiding it is a prison and escaping, entering another then escaping and again and again.

Mephisto wrote: Sun Mar 13, 2022 8:56 pm Some in this forum were already adults even when the setting was first created in 1990, some even played the original Ravenloft adventure when it was released in 1983 .

Lol, I was born in that year (1983)

Mephisto wrote: Sun Mar 13, 2022 8:56 pm Since you can't afford to buy more than 1 or 2 books I recommend Curse of Strahd (the non-racist version, that doesn't depict Vistani as alcoholic thugs), although I don't like some stuff in it (from an in-world "historical" perspective).

Is Curse of Strahd still good since it is 5e? Is there a better version? Because if there is a "racist stuff" there - I can just easily change it!

Mephisto wrote: Sun Mar 13, 2022 8:56 pm If things change and you can buy more I recommend the 3rd Edition Ravenloft Campaign Setting and all the Ravenloft Gazetteers (I, II, III, IV, V). The Gazetteers are full with Easter Eggs from 2e and established Ravenloft more as a world.

Do you mean this book? https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/2478/Ravenloft-30
I also found this one - https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/70 ... andbook-35
First is 3e, second one 3.5e

One last question - do You suggest that I buy the Curse of Strahd as the first book?

CheshireCat wrote: Mon Mar 14, 2022 1:32 pm Is Curse of Strahd still good since it is 5e? Is there a better version? Because if there is a "racist stuff" there - I can just easily change it!

Yes it is good, and to clarify the bad thing with VRGtR is not the rule system (5e) but the content. Curse of Strahd follows a bit the style of the first adventure Ravenloft (released when you were born ) and it also has the elements of the 3e Expedition to Castle Ravenloft with the main theme not being just going to the castle with many side-trek kind of adventures where PCs pick up pieces of the story, equip stuff gain allies (and levels) etc. Don't worry about the racist stuff probably the one you 'll get will be the revised Vistani-friendly version.

CheshireCat wrote: Mon Mar 14, 2022 1:32 pm Do you mean this book? https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/2478/Ravenloft-30
I also found this one - https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/70 ... andbook-35
First is 3e, second one 3.5e

3.5 is a better version of 3e in game mechanics, some stuff were altered in the 3e system after advice by players and so 3.5 was created not as an entirely new system but as a revision that fixed all the things suggested, a kind of better version of 3e. But there are some quirks in the 3.5 as I read in the following review.https://www.enworld.org/threads/ravenlo ... ok.118897/

By the way I own the 3e version this is a review
https://www.rpg.net/reviews/archive/cla ... 5402.phtml

CheshireCat wrote: Mon Mar 14, 2022 1:32 pmOne last question - do You suggest that I buy the Curse of Strahd as the first book?

Curse of Strahd is easy to play without knowing the actual history of Ravenloft so it is a good beginning and it is well written in spite the stuff I wrote above which I don't personally like. Well it revived the whole setting because of it's success so that alone is a good review.

I am used to play with the 2e rules since it is the system I 've played the most. But the rule system I like best is 3e (and 3.5) and everything I write and design is for 3e (or 3.5e although I still haven't found many differences between them). It takes more time for me as a Game Master to create NPCs etc but it has more pluralism than 2e. I never bothered with 4e or 5e per se, but I know they are more simplified and easier to learn (since it was designed to be targeted in younger gamers). It all depends on the time you have to spend on it I guess, I am for sure not the person to tell you which system is better and also comparing systems is a discussion that is prohibited in this forum.

As before I believe the best system is the one that suits you best, for me is 3e, the problem with 3e Ravenloft is that there is only one official Ravenloft adventure module (although it is rather a whole campaign than one adventure) Expedition to Castle Ravenloft which is a predecessor of Curse of Strahd as I said before. In Quoth the Raven Issue 18 there is another adventure Feasting with the Falcons. Some characters in this adventure are from previous official 2e and 3e products as well as some from netbooks, the good thing is that it is for any level and it has a nice in-world atmosphere basically the constant threat of Falkovnia attacking other domains, more politics than monsters.

To know the world I would suggest the Ravenloft Campaign Setting (3e and 3.5e are basically the same) as an old fan when I first read it when it was released I was really satisfied with the job White Wolf did. The thing is then you know much of the world but then it is all in you to create the adventures. Also this book since it can be read also by players doesn't have darklord background and stats, these exist in a small book called Secrets of the Dread Realms https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/25 ... -Realms-3e

The good thing with 3e is that the last Kargatane netbooks and FoS Quoth the Raven annual netbook as well as the Nocturnal Sea Gazetteer, Zherisian Gazetteer and the upcoming (hopefully) Sea of Sorrows Gazetteer are made with 3e rules and they are free to download.

2e as I said before has a plethora of adventures but the system is a bit old for my taste although I still remember most of the rules by heart.

The question more relevant is better buy Curse of Strahd or Expedition to Castle Ravenloft?
Sorry but this is a question for someone who has played both of them, I haven't played them, I have only read them.

From the following review it Curse of Strahd seems to be a lot of work for an unexperienced DM but that should not discourage you.https://www.rpg.net/reviews/archive/17/17548.phtml
Curse of Strahd (5e) has my favourite version of Strahd representing more the old styled dressed warrior hero that liberated Barovia from the Tergs (although the Barovia's history has been changed a bit in CoS).

Mephisto wrote: Mon Mar 14, 2022 2:33 pm Don't worry about the racist stuff probably the one you 'll get will be the revised Vistani-friendly version.

Sorry, I meant that if the "racist" version is better lore-wise, then I don't mind using it (I can always change/fix the "racist stuff" in the adventure).

Mephisto wrote: Mon Mar 14, 2022 2:33 pm I am used to play with the 2e rules since it is the system I 've played the most. But the best rule system in my opinion is 3 (and 3.5) and everything I write and design is for 3e (or 3.5e although I still haven't found many differences between them). It takes more time for me as a Game Master to created NPCs etc but it has more pluralism than 2e. I never bothered with 4e or 5e per se, but I know they are more simplified and easier to learn (since it was designed to be targeted in younger gamers).

I'm planning to use "Savage Worlds Adventure Edition" for the game mechanic. I'm not saying it is amazing or anything - truth be told, this will be my first time using it. I just had the rule book laying around so I decided to test it. So I only need these books for the lore/adventures - NOT for the rules.

Mephisto wrote: Mon Mar 14, 2022 2:33 pm To know the world I would suggest the Ravenloft Campaign Setting (3e and 3.5e are basically the same) as an old fan when I first read it when it was released I was really satisfied with the job White Wolf did.

So I understand that I should buy "Ravenloft Player's Handbook (3.5)" because I can't find "Ravenloft Campaign Setting" for 3e or 3.5e ? Or, since I don't need game mechanics maybe I should buy Curse of Strahd and some other book?

Ps. I know that there is "Ravenloft Reincarnated" for Savage Worlds (fan product). I will take mechanical stuff from it, but since the author removed/changed some stuff (because it was problematic for the modern reader) I don't plan to use it. I just don't know the world of Ravenloft enough to tell if this person removed material and replaced it with something that makes sense from a lore perspective.

I suggest then buying Curse of Strahd and the 3e Ravenloft setting (or the 3.5 version) for the world view of Ravenloft and "correct" history then from there you can expand your game with info from mistipedia and netbooks and if you enjoy it more you could continue with the 3e Gazetteers.

The ones you linked before, they are the same book with some changes as seen in the reviews.
https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/2478/Ravenloft-30
OR
https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/70 ... andbook-35

Mephisto wrote: Mon Mar 14, 2022 4:56 pm ...then from there you can expand your game with info from mistipedia and netbooks...

Thank You for the advice! I will buy Curse of Strahd and then later Ravenloft Player's Handbook (3.5). I will also keep in mind those Gazetteers But what are those "netbooks"? Some books made by Ravenloft fans?

CheshireCat wrote: Tue Mar 15, 2022 9:01 amThank You for the advice!

You're welcome.

CheshireCat wrote: Tue Mar 15, 2022 9:01 amBut what are those "netbooks"? Some books made by Ravenloft fans?

Yes, here are the links. The fisrt one is from the Kargatane, a group of authors who once ran Secrets of the Kargatane (a fan site before FoS), some of whom went on to write for the Ravenloft Product Line. The other one is by members of this Ravenloft fan community.

http://www.kargatane.com/

http://www.fraternityofshadows.com/Library.html

And you can also check mistipedia, a Ravenloft Wiki. You can search in this one, for starters you could search Strahd and see what pops out . My favourite search as a canon freak is Timeline where you can find the recorded Ravenloft (official and unofficial in-world) history
(BC means Barovian Calendar not to be confused with real world history timeline )
http://fraternityofshadows.com/wiki/Main_Page

Welcome @ChesireCat!

Curse of Strahd (5e) is very well thought.
Van Richten's Guide to Ravenloft is not that bad in my opinion. It has some issues to be sure but:
It is not Curse of Strahd. It gives the "Weekend in hell" feel of Ravenloft and on top of that there are issues with many of the domains that stretch believability.

Ravenloft in 3e was a presented as a world that your heroes would care about and fight for it. It was a place that had horrors in the rearview mirror but that you could live in and in many cases, thrive. Not every place was nice, far from it, but Middle Ages and Renaissance were not that nice either.

Ravenloft in VRGtRavenloft is more of an adventure than a campaign. You get in, meet some folks, fight some folks and out.


Curse of Strahd is an adventure that you get in, learn the domain, get used to the domain and then you win (or die).

It really depends on what you want to play, but if you have money for ONE book... I would suggest going with Curse of Strahd.

The 3rd edition with the gazeteers is superior for making a campaign, but the gazetteers are now hard to find. Still, I implore you to find some of the old Ravenloft novels and read some of the good ones.
And if you want pointers as to "which ones were good" you are in the right place to ask...

alhoon wrote: Thu Mar 17, 2022 12:33 pm And if you want pointers as to "which ones were good" you are in the right place to ask...

Which ones are good?

You can find some reviews here http://www.fraternityofshadows.com/DrawingRoom.html
I believe my all time favourites are

Vampires of the Mists, involving an elven vampire who ends up in Barovia from Toril (Forgotten Realms). Jander Sunstar (the elven vampire) is also featured in the following Forgotten Realms book anthologies of short stories Realms of Infamy, Realms of Magic and Realms of Valor. Jander Sunstar was reintroduced in 1996 as a nosferatu vampire, vampire hunter.

I, Strahd, The Memoirs of a Vampire. A look in Strahd Von Zarovich's personal diary detailing events in Prime Material Barovia and then his slow corruption from his viewpoint, as well as events after Barovia and the Demiplane of Dread are one and the same. (It is good material also for playing Strahd).

Probably my favourite Ravenloft novel is Scholar of Decay, a really machiavellian storyline and nice atmosphere.

Knight of the Black Rose and (it's sequel after in-world decades) Spectre of the Black Rose tell the story of one of D&Ds favourite villains, the death Knight Lord Soth. His story and descend to darkness is told in the Dragonlance novel Lord Soth. Soth is one of my favourite villains even before even buying my first Ravenloft product so this could be a fixation and I can't be objective on these.

Tales of Ravenloft is an anthology of short stories, this is a must have as each story is set in different domains and some involve darklords and other important characters. https://www.fraternityofshadows.com/wik ... _Ravenloft

King of the Dead follows the story of Strahd's archenemy the wizard-king Azalin as is it's "sequel" Lord of the Necropolis. While I, Strahd, The War Against Azalin is co-written by the two writers who wrote the two darklord adversaries (Strahd/Azalin) and is very interesting.

Mordenheim was also interesting as was To Sleep With Evil (with a cameo appearance of one of my favourite villains).

And I like the portrayal of Harkon Lukas in Heart of Midnight also good info on the Meistersinger contests.

Avoid Tower of Doom (I only liked the Ball in Castle Avernus idea and you shouldn't even bother reading Death of a Darklord

The Enemy Within is extremely non-canon but has a nice portrayal of the domain of Nova Vaasa, I also like Hiregaard's portrayal.

Dance of the Dead is considered one of the top Ravenloft novels, but I personally don't remember me enjoying it so much (maybe I have to read it again).

Carnival of Fear is the origin story of the Carnival before it became the Carnival. It is considered to also be very good and although I own it for maybe more than two decades I still haven't read it, I don't know why...

I also suggest Ravenloft Compedium II as a good read, as it is full with villain with interesting background stories, most of them tied also with darklords. Although you use other game rules than 2e and stats wouldn't be useful to you, the compediums have some nice ideas for monsters and villans.

https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/17 ... e-Night-2e

Alternately you can buy both Ravenloft Compedium I and II as they were published at some point in a book version.

https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/17 ... s-I--II-2e

Although the monsters are made with 2e rules I always enjoyed the 2e Monstrous Compedium Ecology sections as they sometimes describe items that can be created by the defeated monster or other magical information, which makes useful material for quests and adventures in general.

Ravenloft Compedium III is not as good as the other two.

https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/17 ... _purchased

Here are the monters/villains detailed i each one
I
http://www.fraternityofshadows.com/Draw ... ium_I.html

II
http://www.fraternityofshadows.com/Draw ... um_II.html

III
http://www.fraternityofshadows.com/Draw ... m_III.html

I would suggest starting with:
Then, I would suggest moving to I, Strahd, The Memoirs of a Vampire and I, Strahd, The War Against Azalin.
Especially the war Against Azalin would give you a good idea of how the "Core" was formed and the properties of the plane. The Core refers to the plane of Ravenloft, where the domains are.
Then go for Tales of Ravenloft. Pick a few of these to read to get a better idea of what the domains are (or were) like.

I Strahd ~> I Strahd War against Azalin ~> a few tales from Tales of Ravenloft would give you a solid grasp of the world we all love here.

I would suggest reading those BEFORE making your decision whether to go for the 5e version or the 3e version.
If you prefer the "feeling" of "I Strahd" or the early parts of "War Against Azalin" then you are a "weekend to hell" kind of DM and this is fine. Curse of Strahd captures that feeling, I think.
If you prefer the world as a whole and as shown in the later parts of W.A.Azalin or Tales of Ravenloft, Scholar of Decay, Dance of the Dead etc etc, then it would seem a longer campaign is your style and the 3e material that you can use with 5e after adjusting the ruleset would be more useful to you.

Regardless, after reading those, you could go to the Scholar of Decay that is indeed an excellent novel. Or any other novels others suggested or will suggest.