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I have been doing some research, and I have discovered some contradictions. Per Mistipedia, "The curse that turned Lord Soth into a Death Knight also affected others in his household. His thirteen knights were transformed into mindless skeletons under Soth's command". If I recall correctly, they were cursed thusly because they mindlessly followed Soth's orders in life. Yet in When Dark Roses Bloom (2E), the skeletal warriors are listed as "Int High (15)". They are even able to speak!

So which is it? Are they mindless? Or do they have intelligence?

tomokaicho wrote: Mon Jul 15, 2024 10:37 am I have been doing some research, and I have discovered some contradictions. Per Mistipedia, "The curse that turned Lord Soth into a Death Knight also affected others in his household. His thirteen knights were transformed into mindless skeletons under Soth's command". If I recall correctly, they were cursed thusly because they mindlessly followed Soth's orders in life. Yet in When Dark Roses Bloom (2E), the skeletal warriors are listed as "Int High (15)". They are even able to speak!

So which is it? Are they mindless? Or do they have intelligence?

They are skeletal warriors a monster from Dragonlance, not simple skeletons.
Where in Mistipedia did you read that they are mindless?

Unlike their weaker kin, skeleton warriors retain their intelligence and mastery of weapons. They are physically tougher and stronger and are nearly impervious to magic.
From Mistipedia

A Skeletal Warrior, also called a skeleton warrior, is a type of Undead who was once an experienced mortal combatant that has been forced to continue fighting after death. Skeletal warriors look similar to normal skeletons until they start moving except for tiny pinpricks of red light that emanate from their empty eye sockets. Unlike a normal undead Skeleton a skeletal warrior retains the intelligence, memories, and combat skills it had in life. Some still wear the armor they were buried with, along with a favoured weapon.

Some skeletal warriors are created by a Death Knight in which case the two are bound together and the skeletal warrior is compelled to serve its creator until one of them is destroyed. Other skeletal warriors are created through Necromancy in which case their soul is trapped in a Golden Circlet similar to the phylactery of a Lich. A skeletal warrior is compelled to obey whoever possesses their circlet but unless commanded otherwise will do anything to recover it in order to regain their free will.

After Dargaard Keep was burned during the cataclysm, the thirteen knight devoted to Loren Soth became skeletal warriors. They ceaselessly patrol the battlements of the keep where they had died.

Those unfortunate enough to find themselves in the domain of Sithicus may also meet versions of Soth’s minions. Because they are reflections of Soth’s memories taken by the Dark Powers, they are flawed and will not follow Soth’s commands completely.

Soth's Skeletal Warriors
Colm Farold
Darin Valcic
Derik Grimscribe
Kris Krejlgaard
Meyer Seril
Wersten Kern
Zander Vingus
Sir Mikel
Merrick Grimskull

"The curse that turned Lord Soth into a Death Knight also affected others in his household. His thirteen knights were transformed into mindless skeletons under Soth's command." - via Mistipedia. The source is Knight of the Black Rose.

While it is true that they are skeletal warriors, it is possible that they are cursed to mindlessness by the gods. I don't have a position on it either way. I just want to know the competing lore. When Black Roses Bloom has them as intelligent. I don't recall any novel, including Dragonlance, in which any of the thirteen skeletal warriors were able to communicate or think in the traditional manner. I could be wrong, however.

EDIT: ChatGPT was able to send me in the direction of the 3.5e Dragons of Spring module where I was able to find a statblock.

Lord Soth’s Skeletal Warrior CR 10
Male civilized human skeletal warrior fighter 9
NE Medium undead (augmented humanoid)
Init +6; Senses darkvision 60 ft, Listen +1, Spot +1
Languages Common, Ogre, Solamnic

AC 21, touch 11, flat-footed 20
hp 79 (9 HD); DR 5/bludgeoning
Immune cold, electricity, polymorph; undead traits
SR 22

Fort +6, Ref +5, Will +4

Speed 20 ft. (mwk full plate); base 30 ft.
Melee +1 frost greatsword +16/+11 (2d6+9/17-20 plus 1d6 cold)
or
Melee touch +13 (1d6+4)

Base Atk +9; Grp +13
Attack Options Cleave, Combat Reflexes, Mounted Combat, Power Attack

Abilities Str 19, Dex 15, Con —, Int 12, Wis 12, Cha 14
Feats Animal AffinityB, Combat Reflexes, Cleave, Greater Weapon Focus (greatsword), Improved Critical (greatsword)B, Improved Initiative, Mounted Combat, Power AttackB, Weapon Focus (greatsword) B, Weapon Specialization (greatsword) B

Skills Handle Animal +16, Intimidate +14, Knowledge (nobility) +4, Ride +18
Possessions mwk full plate armor, +1 frost greatsword, mwk daggers (2)

I guess that is case closed.

I think they were not mindless in the sense that they had int -.
They were to follow Soth's orders mindlessly as undead and were unable to have their own agendas and such. They were mindless lackeys, not mindless creatures. They were robbed of their free will, not their intelligence.

As with Lord Soth, they were punished by the gods and cursed with undeath. Becoming skeleton warriors, they lost most of their individual personalities and self identities Furthermore, they were cursed to operate at half the level of skill they had in life, a weakness that Lord Soth was unable to find a way around. Fortunately for them, when they were taken by the Mists to Sithicus, their control circlets were left behind on Krynn, making them obedient only to Soth.

Well Mistipedia is written by people who take their info from various sources.

I would make the skeletal warriors intelligent, but lacking ways of communicating with the living without the use of magic. They "mindlessly" follow Soth's commands but due to his darklord curse his orders are not followed by the letter, something that he finds bothersome and irritating.

An interesting adventure would be having one of this magical control circlets ending up in Sithicus and used by someone.

Another question I have is whether Soth's skeletal warriors ride nightmares or undead steeds? The lore is conflicting.

Mephisto of the FoS wrote: Tue Jul 16, 2024 12:31 amAn interesting adventure would be having one of this magical control circlets ending up in Sithicus and used by someone.

The circlets are indeed mentioned in When Black Roses Bloom, but it was never clear to me that these cursed knights ever had circlets in Dragonlance. A standard skeletal warrior does have a circlet, because they are created by necromancy and the circlets are used to control them.

tomokaicho wrote: Tue Jul 16, 2024 12:34 am Another question I have is whether Soth's skeletal warriors ride nightmares or undead steeds? The lore is conflicting.

Well in 2e images they clearly ride nightmares they were also cast in lead miniatures.

https://miniset.net/sets/rp-10-566
I actually own this one, bought it back in the early 90s.

tomokaicho wrote: Tue Jul 16, 2024 12:34 am The circlets are indeed mentioned in When Black Roses Bloom, but it was never clear to me that these cursed knights ever had circlets in Dragonlance. A standard skeletal warrior does have a circlet, because they are created by necromancy and the circlets are used to control them.

Unless they're created by a death knight, they must be controlled by an expensive (60,000 gp and 2,400 EXP) golden circlet. They retain Intelligence but cannot speak. No vocal cords, I guess.
From http://pandius.com/WotC/1149206.htm

tomokaicho wrote: Tue Jul 16, 2024 12:34 amThe circlets are indeed mentioned in When Black Roses Bloom, but it was never clear to me that these cursed knights ever had circlets in Dragonlance. A standard skeletal warrior does have a circlet, because they are created by necromancy and the circlets are used to control them.

The following is from World of Krynn DL16, 9237 2e Dragonlance adventure

Soth's nightmare, Moggi, is in the stable on level 11. Soth's 13 skeletal warriors are on levels 7, 9, and 11. They are only affected by magical weapons, are 90% magic resistant, and cannot be turned or dispelled! Their appearance is similar to that of a lich. Each warrior's soul is trapped in a golden circlet. These circlets are in an adamantite coffer with Soth's soul, hidden deep in the Dargaard Mountains. The Knights are not aware of the location of these circlets, nor is Soth aware of their significance, even though he saw them briefly in his haste to secure the rod of omniscient wisdom. The mere sight of a skeletal warrior will cause a creature below 5 Hit Dice to flee in panic. They are + 3 to hit with any weapon.

There are many differences though between Dargaard Keep in the World of Krynn adventure and Nedrargaard Keep in When Black Roses Bloom. The biggest difference is a mistake they made for the picture of Nedrargaard Keep in When Black Roses Bloom, the castle in the image is actually The Tower of High Clerist not Dargaard (or Nedragaard) Keep which has the shape of a rose.

Wrong image of Nedragaard Keep
https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/0dMAAOSw ... -l960.webp

Correct images of Nedragaard Keep



Another major difference is the keep's blueprints, Dargaard Keep in World of Krynn is more chaotic and the description is more like a dungeon crawl adventure. I prefer the version in When Black Roses Bloom, it makes more sense in general as the keep was built to accommodate a living knight his family and troops not an undead one.

Dragonlace (chaotic) version










Ravenloft (simpler and better imo) version

Great replies. Thank you.

Mephisto of the FoS wrote: Tue Jul 16, 2024 3:43 am
Well in 2e images they clearly ride nightmares they were also cast in lead miniatures.

https://miniset.net/sets/rp-10-566
I actually own this one, bought it back in the early 90s.

I just took a look at Knight of the Black Rose and confirmed that Soth's skeletal warriors do indeed ride nightmares in that. I am reaching the conclusion that a death knight's skeletal warrior is not really the same as a skeletal warrior created by a necromancer. The strong implication is that a death knight's skeletal warriors can summon nightmares, just like a death knight.

Mephisto of the FoS wrote: Tue Jul 16, 2024 3:43 amUnless they're created by a death knight, they must be controlled by an expensive (60,000 gp and 2,400 EXP) golden circlet. They retain Intelligence but cannot speak. No vocal cords, I guess.

They do speak in When Black Roses Bloom, but they do not speak in either Knight of the Black Rose or in Spectre of the Black Rose.

When Black Roses Bloom wrote:Skeletal Guardians

In Krynn, the skeletal warriors who served Lord Soth were extremely powerful creatures, almost equal in stature to their master. But like the banshees, the skeletal warriors of Sithicus are flawed; their strength and abilities are half what they once were. In an attempt to correct this irritating flaw, Soth at first drilled his skeletal warriors mercilessly. But this proved futile; the undead creatures could not increase in ability.

The thirteen skeletal warriors who patrol Nedragaard Keep are wandering monsters. Each turn there is a 10% chance (non-cumulative) that the heroes encounter a skeletal warrior on patrol. When this happens, read the following:

The clank of armor and the thud of heavy bootsteps echo within the halls. You smell a faint odor of rot.

Suddenly you see the source. Striding toward you is a giant of a warrior, clad in rusted armor and tattered clothing. Behind the visor of the warrior’s helm, twin pinpoints of red glow with an unearthly light. In skeletal hands, the warrior clutches a terrible sword, its blade streaked with rust—or perhaps with dried blood. Glaring at you, the figure opens its creaking jaws and issues a challenge: “Who goes there?”

The password: The skeletal warriors are under orders to attack any intruders in the keep, but they always check whether strangers have arrived at their lord’s behest. If strangers answer the challenge properly, the warrior leaves them alone. If not, the warrior immediately attacks.

The current correct answer to the challenge is:
“A servant of the dark lord.”

The skeletal warriors do not challenge the banshees, but they do challenge Azrael, who knows all the correct responses. Thus the heroes may have a chance to overhear the appropriate response. Unfortunately, Soth has ordered the password changed daily. It rotates through the following responses:

“A seeker of the rose.”
“A squire of the black knight.”
“A companion of Lord Soth.”
“One who treads the dark path.”

Soth's nightmare, Moggi, is in the stable on level 11. Soth's 13 skeletal warriors are on levels 7, 9, and 11. They are only affected by magical weapons, are 90% magic resistant, and cannot be turned or dispelled! Their appearance is similar to that of a lich. Each warrior's soul is trapped in a golden circlet. These circlets are in an adamantite coffer with Soth's soul, hidden deep in the Dargaard Mountains. The Knights are not aware of the location of these circlets, nor is Soth aware of their significance, even though he saw them briefly in his haste to secure the rod of omniscient wisdom. The mere sight of a skeletal warrior will cause a creature below 5 Hit Dice to flee in panic. They are + 3 to hit with any weapon.

A fear aura? Interesting. That isn't in the skeletal warrior 3.5e stats. Its another indicator that the skeletal warriors that follow a death knight are lower powered versions of death knights.

Mephisto of the FoS wrote: Tue Jul 16, 2024 4:17 amRavenloft (simpler and better imo) version

Very ironic indeed that Nedragaard ("not Daargard") is the preferred version to the lesser canonical version of Daargard Keep.

One other question is, are these actually the original Skeleton Warriors? Cause as I recall, Soth entered the land of mists alone without his entourage. Its possible that these are just mist recreations, as flawed as everything else in their recreation of Soth's home. That could also mean that the original 13 are still roaming Krynn, forever in search of their lost master (until he came back 10 minutes later, technically).

KingCorn wrote: Tue Jul 16, 2024 10:51 am One other question is, are these actually the original Skeleton Warriors? Cause as I recall, Soth entered the land of mists alone without his entourage. Its possible that these are just mist recreations, as flawed as everything else in their recreation of Soth's home. That could also mean that the original 13 are still roaming Krynn, forever in search of their lost master (until he came back 10 minutes later, technically).

They are most likely copies. They had different habits to his original retainers. The originals are no doubt back in Krynn. However, if you accept When Black Roses Bloom as correct, then they are the same retainers from Krynn.

KingCorn wrote: Tue Jul 16, 2024 10:51 am One other question is, are these actually the original Skeleton Warriors? Cause as I recall, Soth entered the land of mists alone without his entourage. Its possible that these are just mist recreations, as flawed as everything else in their recreation of Soth's home. That could also mean that the original 13 are still roaming Krynn, forever in search of their lost master (until he came back 10 minutes later, technically).

They are most likely copies. They had different habits to his original retainers. The originals are no doubt back in Krynn. However, if you accept When Black Roses Bloom as correct, then they are the same retainers from Krynn.
[/quote]

Well as mentioned before they are as much irritating to Soth as the banshees are and the keep, they constantly make mistakes and don't follow orders by the letter as they used to.

Mephisto of the FoS wrote: Tue Jul 16, 2024 3:54 pmWell as mentioned before they are as much irritating to Soth as the banshees are and the keep, they constantly make mistakes and don't follow orders by the letter as they used to.

That's right.

I have discovered something very unfortunate in the statblocks of 3.5e death knights and skeletal warriors. According to the lore, Soth has a cold touch that is damaging. In the 3.5e template and statblocks, this is presented as negative energy instead of elemental cold. "Who cares?", you say. Negative energy attacks have an additional use that the designers did not think about. Negative energy attacks in 3.5e heal undead. This means that both death knights and skeletal warriors have healing on tap. Its a simple matter to change the attacks back to cold, however.

I have been doing quite a bit of research and will probably be able to submit Lord Soth's 3.5e statblock for the next QtR. Whatever he did in any of the novels, he should be able to do in this statblock.

On a different note, although canon has Lord Soth returning to Krynn, a very interesting scenario might be Soth, his skeletal warriors, and his banshees (with their chariots of bone drawn by wyverns) assailing Castle Ravenloft during a minor conjunction in which the borders open to darklords. You just know that Lord Soth is eager for vengeance on Strahd.

In my Ravenloft, Soth has been redeemed.

tomokaicho wrote: Tue Jul 16, 2024 4:08 pm I have been doing quite a bit of research and will probably be able to submit Lord Soth's 3.5e statblock for the next QtR. Whatever he did in any of the novels, he should be able to do in this statblock.

You can check this as well, a discussion we had some time ago on Soth's stats.
https://www.fraternityofshadows.com/for ... h&start=15