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Golems - nature VS nurture

Posted: Fri Nov 07, 2025 8:23 am
by TheArcaneWeirdo
Dear Dr. van Richten,
I've recently read your 'Guide to the Created'. I was thoroughly impressed by your ability to dive into such a charged topic with sensitivity and scientific accuracy as well as practicality - it would surely come in handy next time my brother and I face a golem.
And yet, there is one thing I must question.
In your chapter about the psychology of the golem, you described its process of alienation from the Born and turning toward evil as deterministic: The golem can never find acceptance in the Born society, and thus will always grow to hate us and himself.
As one who had faced lack of acceptance as a youth, for numerous reasons, this is a depressing notion for me. Not to say this is a reason to ignore truth. But as such, I have found that there's always someone willing to accept you. Prejudice is a natural (demi)human trait, but is extremely subjective, depending on the individual's personality, culture and experience. I've traveled along and befriended equally off-putting creatures many times, often not even considering it unusual. The 'horror and disgust' are not inevitable.
So.
I'll disclaim I do not intend to imply it is recommended to create a golem, or to spare an adult golem threatening to assualt innocents, and surely do not intend to do either myself.
But was a golem still in the stage of dependence, or the beginning of the stage of confusion, to encounter a person other than their creator who is unmoved by their horrific appearance, that person could 'soften the blow', clearify that while some might be startled by the golem, neither those people nor the golem are evil, and it does not mean they're doomed for eternal isolation. Further, such person could guide and support the golem without exposing their undesirable thoughts and feelings like the telepathic connection forces the creator to! In this case (assume the person in question is competent to handle a (demi)human youth with psychological disorders), could such mentorship stray the golem away from the expected course? I do not ask whether the golem's evil is inherent or aquired - you've made it quite clear that both factors fuel eachother. But was the aquired factor to be removed, what would prevail, nature or nurture?
Is there a chance - however slim and impractical as it might seem to a hunter whose primary consideration is the lives a dread golem might risk - of saving it from becoming in the first place the terrible monster you've described?
Best wishes and fishes,
Talyn Truefinder.

Yes, I had a lore question and I wrote it as an in-world letter by my PC.
As a game, I challenge the first commenter to phrase his answer as Rudolph's response, and the next ones to respond as your PCs or as other scholars of Ravenloft. (Admins - If this fits more in another forum, tell me).

Re: Golems - nature VS nurture

Posted: Fri Nov 07, 2025 1:58 pm
by IanFordam
M. Truefinder,

I hope you are not offended by my impertinence in responding to you, but the Mademoiselles Weathermay-Foxgrove have empowered me to handle correspondence addressed to Dr. Van Richten in their absence, particularly in matters where time may be of the essence.

You asked a very rich question regarding the Created, one which I feel deserves full and immediate consideration. First of all, you are to be commended for your compassion. That virtue is always in demand but not always at hand.

Unfortunately, the Good Doctor never recorded any cases where the alienation of one of the Created was averted (or attempted to be averted) by early intervention, so we have no evidence to offer one way or the other, leaving us with informed speculation. Having read the Guides several times, I would venture that Dr. Van Richten would fall on the side of Nature. In particular, he might point out that what causes the alienation is not whether the Created is accepted but whether they feel they are accepted, and in the long run their very nature may prevent them from doing so.

The Mademoiselles Weathermay-Foxgrove tend to be less fatalist than Dr. Van Richten, so perhaps they would disagree. Upon their return I shall show them your letter and solicit their opinions.

Nonetheless, if your question is not merely theoretical, I encourage you to be wary.

Willem Abernathy, Clerk
Van Richten's Herbalist Shop

Re: Golems - nature VS nurture

Posted: Fri Nov 07, 2025 3:16 pm
by Mistmaster
Post Sriptum if you were to address your ,qustion to Dr Van Richten exteemed mentor , Dr Archibald Everlast, he would certainly tell you that Nurture trumps Nature, always.

Re: Golems - nature VS nurture

Posted: Sat Nov 08, 2025 7:39 am
by Mephisto of the FoS
Van Richtens Guide to the Created p. 68-69 talks specifically about this. Dr. Van Richten describes golems as the ultimate "bad seeds". "Nature" wins.

Re: Golems - nature VS nurture

Posted: Sat Nov 08, 2025 9:22 am
by Mistmaster
Another thing the good doctor was wrong about it seems.

Re: Golems - nature VS nurture

Posted: Sat Nov 08, 2025 3:43 pm
by Speedwagon
To M. Truefinder,

I have heard of your correspondence with the good Dr. Van Richten, as well as of your answering from his clerk, Mr. Abernathy. Having met Mr. Abernathy myself, I'm sure the good man has given you a satisfactory response to your initial query and in a timely manner no doubt. Additionally, I'm sure you may have had other correspondences with various scholars & other eccentric-yet-skilled figures within our community (a certain "everlasting" one comes to mind). Yet I too would like to weigh in on your concerns, should you find this acceptable. Otherwise, please feel free to disregard this letter and continue with your journey.

I find myself falling into a similar camp as the Mademoiselles Weathermay-Foxgrove, for what it may be worth. Though I've cherished my time working with and writing to the good Dr. Van Richten, I have indeed found that any crusade against the rot within our world can very well reflect that decay in one's own spirit. This is the case no matter how pure one's intentions may be nor how long or short one's tenure in such a position has lasted. The Good Doctor has seen many things and experienced many horrors. Those leave scars upon one's soul that can be imperceptible to almost anyone and everyone, especially the scarred themselves.

Yet I say this as I too have traveled far and wide, and know more than most that the Land of Mists we call home can differ greatly from that of lands beyond our borders. We have not extensively mapped our surroundings, for there is little point---tomorrow a new land may find itself emerging to the north of Darkon or to the south of Sithicus, and a cartographer's work would be called into question once again. Yet within the blinding fog surrounding us is but a single word: potential. The potential to find new lands, with new cultures & new ideas, and new creatures---benevolent or not---within. And with that potential lies my answer: there could be, indeed, a Created that is not malevolent by their nature. Perhaps this Created hails from a land so unlike those we are familiar with as to make it a possibility----much like the lands of various "Outlanders" who claim to fight great winged-serpents of belching flame & whose worlds revolve around gaseous balls of fire they call the sun, very much unlike ours. But it is possible. The Good Doctor always spoke of how creatures are unique---do not assume that every werebeast of a certain type will always be the exact same in its powers & vulnerabilities. With that individuality in mind, it is possible that the capricious Mists around us may indeed put such a Created, one defined by Nurture as opposed to Nature, within your path, to challenge your preconceptions and judge your morality irrevocably. Be prepared for such a day, without letting the thought consume you and catch you off-guard. The aphorism "you'll know it when you see it" comes to mind.

I do not know how helpful this communique might have been, but I hope it has given you some degree of perspective. I would be delighted to work with you and others within your group should you ever need assistance.

Kind Regards,

Antoine Battier

Re: Golems - nature VS nurture

Posted: Sat Nov 08, 2025 6:19 pm
by Mistmaster
"My extimate mr Truefinder, a common friend informed me about your very intelligent qustion about the Created. As good mr Abernathy informed you this was one of the many point of contention I have had in the years with my did friend Rudolph.I mantain that every single not pure Outsider creature with the gift of intellect is given free will. And every such creature needs to be raised properly to be able to exercise their free will properly. Awakened Golems are not different. I have personally met Golems who were way better than many humanoids I know"
Your, Archibald Everlast.

Re: Golems - nature VS nurture

Posted: Sun Nov 09, 2025 9:01 am
by TheArcaneWeirdo
Speedwagon wrote: Sat Nov 08, 2025 3:43 pm Though I've cherished my time working with and writing to the good Dr. Van Richten, I have indeed found that any crusade against the rot within our world can very well reflect that decay in one's own spirit. This is the case no matter how pure one's intentions may be nor how long or short one's tenure in such a position has lasted. The Good Doctor has seen many things and experienced many horrors. Those leave scars upon one's soul that can be imperceptible to almost anyone and everyone, especially the scarred themselves.
Dear Mr. Battier,
I'm certain you have known Dr. van Richten much better than I do. I am merely a reader of his books, and while a man's writing can reveal much about his spirit, this sense of understanding can be misleading.
Nevertheless, I feel obliged to state this is not the impression I'd recieved from the Guide to the Created. I'd known adventurers who have let this life among monsters get the better of them, who'd slay whoever stands in their way to revenge or to the percieved 'greater good', heedless of the consequence (once or twice I had to resort to my spells in order to stop one of those types from assaulting a potential ally) - and many more who aspired to be noble protectors of mankind, but had no regard for the lives of allegedly 'evil' species.
Van Richten does not strike me as one of them.
This is exactly what impressed me about the book - his capability for complexity. He indeed had a tendency for obsession, but he was very aware and wary of it. It's because of this tendency that he expressed great understanding and sympathy of the obsession that leads one to create a dread golem - an obsession that could be easily dismissed as stupidity or preversion. He seemed to me like a man aware of his own flaws and possible prejudices, wise enough to know how hard it is to define a creature as 'inherently evil', and sensitive enough to feel compassion even towards those he hates - Who nevertheless deems it neccessary to eschew that compassion in the face of true danger.
This is the only reason I was even asking, rather than straight-up assuming this is the same kind of generalization people view orcs or the drow with - your friend sounded like the last person who'd say such thing without a very good reason.
I ought to remark that I am what you'd consider an 'outlander'. I was born and raised in the world of Toril, but my misadventures in the Shadowfell have led me multiple times into your misty realm. BTW, despite the similarity in appearance, Dragons are not reptillian and certainly not related to serpents (An example of the flaws of morphology-based taxonomy). This topic is of particular interest to me, so feel free to ask more quetions.
Thank you for taking the time to respond,
Talyn Truefinder.

Re: Golems - nature VS nurture

Posted: Sun Nov 09, 2025 9:11 am
by TheArcaneWeirdo
IanFordam wrote: Fri Nov 07, 2025 1:58 pm M. Truefinder,

I hope you are not offended by my impertinence in responding to you, but the Mademoiselles Weathermay-Foxgrove have empowered me to handle correspondence addressed to Dr. Van Richten in their absence, particularly in matters where time may be of the essence.

You asked a very rich question regarding the Created, one which I feel deserves full and immediate consideration. First of all, you are to be commended for your compassion. That virtue is always in demand but not always at hand.

Unfortunately, the Good Doctor never recorded any cases where the alienation of one of the Created was averted (or attempted to be averted) by early intervention, so we have no evidence to offer one way or the other, leaving us with informed speculation. Having read the Guides several times, I would venture that Dr. Van Richten would fall on the side of Nature. In particular, he might point out that what causes the alienation is not whether the Created is accepted but whether they feel they are accepted, and in the long run their very nature may prevent them from doing so.

The Mademoiselles Weathermay-Foxgrove tend to be less fatalist than Dr. Van Richten, so perhaps they would disagree. Upon their return I shall show them your letter and solicit their opinions.

Nonetheless, if your question is not merely theoretical, I encourage you to be wary.

Willem Abernathy, Clerk
Van Richten's Herbalist Shop
Thank you for answering, Willem!
I have to admit I'm preplexed. It's been a while since I've last visited this demiplane, and I need to catch up. Had something happened to Mr. van Richten? And what is your connection to him? And who are the Mademoiselles Weathermay-Foxgrove? (They don't happen to be related to the Weathermay, right? My friends and I had... Unpleasant dealings with him in the past.)
Curious and concerned,
Talyn Truefinder.