Café de Nuit

Is it just me, or nobody talks about Icath?
Anyway, let's talk about it already.
I read about OG Icath in Mistipedia - it has this really cool mythical vibe, and a pretty interesting adventure concept... But it's ONE adventure concept, and if you're doing it properly there's not going to a be domain left afterwards. Cause the whole place is like, 5 undead women you're supposed to put to rest or whatever. It's good... For, like, a three-session long arc. No place for expanding.

Then VRGtR gave us a completely different version of the domain, which I'm not even going to try to reconcile with the old one.
On the one hand, it keeps the cool 'four daughters' plot hook, while enlarging the domain and giving you other stuff to do there, turning it a bit more of 'campaign material'.
On the other hand, the concept feels like a manifest criticsizing modern China thinly disguised as a domain, which I don't know what to think about.

We have had members who actually live in Asia and feel Icath is filled with racist caricatures of Asians so people really aren’t sure what to do with it. I suppose that doesn’t carry as much weight in the Trump era, but still…

At best it's cliched tropes about woman rulers being an evil thing. While that often was an opinion held historically (or, unfortunately, now), the 2e write-up for I'Cath plays it straight rather than subverting it. Maybe I'll end up in a minority, but I feel like it would make for a more interesting Darklord if Tsien Chiang was actually a competent ruler, but got driven to more and more extreme measures as misogynist underlings kept trying to overthrow her. At a minimum, though, I'd get rid of the "four daughters by four husbands" thing and the whole palace of bone.

As far as the realm itself, the 2e version is one of the Weekend In Hell domains that doesn't have any sustaining power for a campaign. That's not always a bad thing, but as our only example of an Asian-inspired domain it ends up being less than ideal. It's filler that feels like it exists only to encourage people to buy the Kara-Tur Monstrous Compendium Appendix.

Manofevil wrote: Thu May 28, 2026 6:40 pm We have had members who actually live in Asia and feel Icath is filled with racist caricatures of Asians so people really aren’t sure what to do with it. I suppose that doesn’t carry as much weight in the Trump era, but still…

I feel like nowadays some people care about this more than even and sometimes get too perfectionistic about it, while other people are too lazy to bother themselves with it at all and just call anyone who does care 'woke'. There are these two opposing trends in a constant struggle etc.
Personally I care a lot about representation. It's especially difficult in horror, I think, because you have to walk a very fine line to write something scary involving X group while avoiding presenting X group as inherently scary. (I'm struggling with this now with my Pride Month fanfic anthology...) I'd even say horror is inherently less inclusive than other types of speculative fiction, because it's all about the unknown being dangerous and abominable (rather than wonderous and worth exploring like in epic fantasy), which is part of why it took me so long to try out the genre. However, it doesn't mean we shouldn't try to subvert harmful stereotypes.

Do you think the 5e version is better or worse than the original one?

I mean, from representation perspective?

The Dark wrote: Thu May 28, 2026 7:08 pm At best it's cliched tropes about woman rulers being an evil thing. While that often was an opinion held historically (or, unfortunately, now), the 2e write-up for I'Cath plays it straight rather than subverting it.

Frankly, my main problem with this is less the fact Ravenloft has the character of a tyrannical woman portrayed pretty mysogynistically and known for hating men and killing all of her husbands/boyfriends, and more with the fact that if I had a dollar for every time Ravenloft did it, I'd have at least two dollars.
Cause Ivana Boritsi checks all these boxes. I'm pretty sure at least half of the canon darkladys check some of them. This isn't just sexist - it's unoriginal!

Maybe I'll end up in a minority, but I feel like it would make for a more interesting Darklord if Tsien Chiang was actually a competent ruler, but got driven to more and more extreme measures as misogynist underlings kept trying to overthrow her. At a minimum, though, I'd get rid of the "four daughters by four husbands" thing and the whole palace of bone.

Your first suggestion is pretty similar to what 5e did with Ivana, just saying. (Her Act of Ultimate Darkness changed to poisonong her father as revenge for him passing inheritance to her cousin even though she was more fit for rulership just because she was a girl, her curse changed to never being tsken seriously nor matter how brilliant she is, due to her youth and gender)
As four your second suggestion - Do you mean giving up the daughters entirely, or just retconning them being from different husbands?

TheArcaneWeirdo wrote: Fri May 29, 2026 10:30 am As four your second suggestion - Do you mean giving up the daughters entirely, or just retconning them being from different husbands?

Keep the daughters, ditch that part of the back story. Maybe base the three elder sisters on the Three Poisons of Buddhism (delusion/ignorance, greed/attachment, and hatred/aversion) to give them a new hook to hang their hats on.

While I can't say too much currently due to being rather busy at work, I will say that I've been working on a way to merge 5e and 2e/3e I'Cath into one thing. And that there are quite a bit of folks on this platform who have toryed with the concept of a "gothic orient" or I'Cath remake over the years (just look up "gothic orient" or "I'Cath" in the search bar and you'll see), and the 5e interpretation of I'Cath is one of my favorite domains and seems to be a strong favorite among fans of the setting regardless of edition. By merging the two domains and expanding on the land itself, I think it addresses my biggest gripes with both: it gives depth to 2e/3e I'Cath beyond being a high-level kill zone, and it gives some useful logistics for how Tsien Chiang keeps her sleeping and starving city alive but at thin margins for survival. And it gives more to do beyond the sleeping city itself.

If anyone wants to hear of what I'm working on with I'Cath or wants to collaborate on it, hit me up!

Speedwagon wrote: Fri May 29, 2026 4:44 pm While I can't say too much currently due to being rather busy at work, I will say that I've been working on a way to merge 5e and 2e/3e I'Cath into one thing. And that there are quite a bit of folks on this platform who have toryed with the concept of a "gothic orient" or I'Cath remake over the years (just look up "gothic orient" or "I'Cath" in the search bar and you'll see), and the 5e interpretation of I'Cath is one of my favorite domains and seems to be a strong favorite among fans of the setting regardless of edition. By merging the two domains and expanding on the land itself, I think it addresses my biggest gripes with both: it gives depth to 2e/3e I'Cath beyond being a high-level kill zone, and it gives some useful logistics for how Tsien Chiang keeps her sleeping and starving city alive but at thin margins for survival. And it gives more to do beyond the sleeping city itself.

If anyone wants to hear of what I'm working on with I'Cath or wants to collaborate on it, hit me up!

Tell me more.

TheArcaneWeirdo wrote: Sat May 30, 2026 12:31 pm

Speedwagon wrote: Fri May 29, 2026 4:44 pm While I can't say too much currently due to being rather busy at work, I will say that I've been working on a way to merge 5e and 2e/3e I'Cath into one thing. And that there are quite a bit of folks on this platform who have toryed with the concept of a "gothic orient" or I'Cath remake over the years (just look up "gothic orient" or "I'Cath" in the search bar and you'll see), and the 5e interpretation of I'Cath is one of my favorite domains and seems to be a strong favorite among fans of the setting regardless of edition. By merging the two domains and expanding on the land itself, I think it addresses my biggest gripes with both: it gives depth to 2e/3e I'Cath beyond being a high-level kill zone, and it gives some useful logistics for how Tsien Chiang keeps her sleeping and starving city alive but at thin margins for survival. And it gives more to do beyond the sleeping city itself.

If anyone wants to hear of what I'm working on with I'Cath or wants to collaborate on it, hit me up!

Tell me more.

I'd love to! Once I'm not as busy, that is, but I do wish to share this project with the good folks on here and get some feedback as well. If you'd like to help me out with it, let me know as well. Next week I'll have a bit more free time so hopefully I can say more then.