Café de Nuit

Here's a question I've been pondering since I saw Drinnik's post on the Ebb/Gloom thread about evil creatures being capable of love. What I want to know is, do you think (in the context of Ravenloft or elsewhere), that it's possible for evil creatures to truly love each other?

I have my own thoughts on this, which I'll probably post after seeing what kinds of responses I get.

Thanks!

This is a hard question for several reasons, but here's my take:

If a creature is purely evil, it is no longer capable of love; it is not really capable of thinking about others at all. To borrow the phrase of a philospher whose name I really should remember, they think of the whole world as "it" rather than "thou"; objects to be manipulated instead of people to be understood.

But very few creatures are truly purely evil (in a Ravenloft context, probably none except for fiends). To whatever degree they remain not-evil, they can still love.

The question is particularly hard for creatures like Ebb and Gloom, because it's hard to say if human morality really applies to them. (Applying real-world morals to fantastic creatures is tricky business.)

I think it's perfectly possible. One of the most evil of evils is setting false boundaries. Picture slavery. We all (I think) consider slavery to be evil. I can definately see a cruel slave overseer who thinks nothing of the slaves in his care, but it perfectly congenial to non-slaves, and could even fall in love.

Love can even inspire evil. I think the canon Mordenheim tries to save Elise because he can't stand failure, but I could easily imagine that it was for true love. Heck, there are few evils I wouldn't do to save the people I love.

Evil at its purest would be devoid of love as stated by Nathan... But is there anything truly that pure?

Misery loves company... is it not so for those that are evil? Can no one else see Vlad finding the perfect woman... the one who puts peasants on the pikes and laughs.... All hearts have a melting point, with the "evil" person, they are less likely to find the one person who compliments them fully, but it is possible.

Just my opinion:

Can Evil love? Sure; love's not always the over-the-top romantic creshendo that Hallmark cards try to make it sound like, and affection for parents, kids, friends and significant others are all a part of any person's feelings, who isn't an out-and-out sociopath. And even sociopaths can at least like having someone else in their lives.

Can Evil love selflessly? No way, IMO. If someone commits evil deeds purely out of their genuine, honest, selfless love for another, they're morally Neutral (albeit perhaps foolish, deluded or manipulated) rather than outright Evil. If they had ulterior motives to commit the evil deeds in question, OTOH, then their love isn't genuinely selfless and they are indeed Evil.

If Strahd had killed Sergei because the Dark Powers had tricked him into believing Sergei was plotting to strangle Tatyana on their wedding night, and he'd never stopped to think of how Sergei's death would give him his own chance to win her heart, then even Strahd's fratricidal act wouldn't have made him Evil! (Pretty stupid for believing the DPs' ridiculous assertions, but not Evil.....) If, OTOH, the Dark Powers had convinced him Sergei had such malign intentions, but he'd been glad to hear it (because it left him his chance to claim Tatyana's affections for himself), then killing Sergei would've still turned Strahd Evil ... although, if Strahd had thought he was protecting Tatyana's life, it might not have qualified as an AoUD.

e·vil
adj. e·vil·er, e·vil·est

1. Morally bad or wrong; wicked: an evil tyrant.
2. Causing ruin, injury, or pain; harmful: the evil effects of a poor diet.
3. Characterized by or indicating future misfortune; ominous: evil omens.
4. Bad or blameworthy by report; infamous: an evil reputation.
5. Characterized by anger or spite; malicious: an evil temper.

-Dictionary.com

I see know reason why an 'evil' person truly can't garner love. Love is really only an abstract term; as is evil. I think that there is truly no good & evil. It is a generalization of our views on a topic. One thing evil to me may not be necessarily evil to another. An evil general may be righteous and great for his people but a cruel man for his opponents.

Evil is used nowadays as something to define what we(generalized humanity) define as a bad thing. It is the same with good. To this point, I really believe that when defining someone, we should stray from usage of evil. We should define how the subject is for the reader/audience so they can percieve him as an evil one.

Citing my feelings on the word 'evil' from above, there can be love in evil just as many righteous figures in our eyes have commtied hateful acts. Adolf Hitler, a cruel dictator and probably evil in almost everyone's terms now, loved his wife named Eva Braun. He even went as far as assisting her sucide which to me sounds like a thing that only lovers or close companions would do.

The book of Erotic fiction has a very good opening chapter about just this. They label Lawfull evil as the only alignment capable of acctual love with NE being capable only of Obession and CE of only Lust.

For Lawfull evils however love = respect. They can never truly love someone who they do not feel as equal to them in both possition and power. The evil yet noble general could never have more then a casual fling with the innocent barmaid as she is far beneith him in both rank and ability. His lovely second in command who regularly fights at his side on the other hand could easly spark feeling of true love and devotion from him.

A great example of this is Ashrum and Pirotess from the Record of Lodoss War OVas. There is no mistaking him and her as evil but they do truely feel each as equals and as such feel truly in love with each other.

As far as I'm concerned, the discussion ended with the first reply. Nathan summed my views on the subject really well.

Assuming, for the sake of the discussion, that a truly, purely, all-exclusively evil individual can actually exist, I don't see how he would be capable of love, which, by definition, is a selfless emotion. If he were to truly love, the individual would no longer be purely evil. Fortunately for humanity, no person is actually evil to the core - not even the Darklords.

To find evil personified, you'd have to go see Evil Outsiders. I admit that I have read some romantic tales where a demon from hell fell in love with a beautiful woman, be she peasant or princess. In each case, however, the author looked at the demon as a 'fallen angel' type, with some surviving shreds of its past good self - not unlike a typical Darklord.

Just to make a teensy clarification, Eva Braun was not Hitler's wife, she was his lover.
And cousin, I think.

Indeed, to be evil is to see things differently, with a lot more distance then somebody normal.

One can be evil, savage and ruthless to build an empire, but still could fall in love. Think about the "typical" mafia lord: bad guy during the day, loving father at night.

Joël

i like the mafia example, since they are infamously ruthless and family orientated.

Love is clearly within the grasp of evil beings, as demonstrated by the assassin droid in Knights of the Old Republic:

"Most organics cannot define the concept of love, but I have devised a satisfactory definition: Love is hitting a meat-bag in the knees with an areomac rifle from 1000 yards away; two objects coming together against all odds to form something beautiful."

Actually, Hitler and Eva did get married the day before their suicides.

I think evil can love if the life of another has value. Take Strahd for example. Say you found Tatyana's reincarnation. You could use her to blackmail Strahd because he values her life. He might even die again for her. I think that counts as love.

ScS of the Fraternity wrote:i like the mafia example, since they are infamously ruthless and family orientated.

Love is clearly within the grasp of evil beings, as demonstrated by the assassin droid in Knights of the Old Republic:

"Most organics cannot define the concept of love, but I have devised a satisfactory definition: Love is hitting a meat-bag in the knees with an areomac rifle from 1000 yards away; two objects coming together against all odds to form something beautiful."

In that case, I don't think I've ever been in love.

I think that evil can love, even selflessly, but it becomes a consuming thing that darker emotions circle around. Jealousy towards anyone that comes near their paramour, hate towards anyone who harms them or tries to come between them. They love that one person and are willing to do ANYTHING for them.

Gemathustra wrote:Just to make a teensy clarification, Eva Braun was not Hitler's wife, she was his lover.
And cousin, I think.

Ho man I hate those stupid rumor about Hitler!
First he married her before killing himself.
Secondly she had no fmailly link with Hitler. She was form germany he was from ostrich(do we write it that way in english?)

i suggets that you watch the movie named the fall, it portrait Hitler as the man he was not more not less: the actors are simply great I mean you even feel pity for Hitler.

Faust wrote:

Gemathustra wrote:Just to make a teensy clarification, Eva Braun was not Hitler's wife, she was his lover.
And cousin, I think.

Ho man I hate those stupid rumor about Hitler!
First he married her before killing himself.
Secondly she had no fmailly link with Hitler. She was form germany he was from ostrich(do we write it that way in english?)

i suggets that you watch the movie named the fall, it portrait Hitler as the man he was not more not less: the actors are simply great I mean you even feel pity for Hitler.

Austria. Ostrich is a big bird with black feathers.