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Alternative Sorcerer

Here are rules for an alternative Sorcerer. The sorcerer is still a spellcaster that shapes the energies of magic within his ability limits according to training and knowledge. However, instead of being far more limited in the effects he can produce, the sorcerer can achieve many more effects than the wizard, but his spells are not guaranteed to succeed.
In essence, the wizards study magic and prepare their spells in a way that makes the spells safe to cast and guarantees success. The sorcerers on the other hand use their innate abilities at a whim, producing effects as they see fit in a given situation, but their approach on magic is not always successful and sometimes, not even safe.

Changes to the Sorcerer core class general info:
Skill points/ level: 4 +int
Skills: Add 8 class skills: Abjuration (wis), conjuration (int), divination (wis), enchantment (cha), evocation (int), illusion (int), necromancy (cha), transmutation (int).

Class abilities:

Eschew Materials: At 1st level, the sorcerer gains this feat for free. It lets sorcerers cast the spells they decide without carrying a huge load of components that may be usefull. For more expensive materials, well . . . the sorcerer has to prepare or improvise.

Bonus Feats: At 5th, 10th, 20th level the sorcerer gains a bonus feat. This feat must be a metamagic feat, the spell focus feat (and follow-ups), the spell penetration feat or one of the school focus feats.

School focus: At 15th level the sorcerer gains this feat for free in one of the schools he or she doesn’t have it.

Spellcasting: To cast a spell, the sorcerer must choose a spell from the PHB wizard/ sorcerer list and any other spell list the DM approves for wizards and sorcerers (Complete arcane, VRArsenal etc) according to the maximum spell level the character can cast, spell slots remaining etc.
Then the character makes a skill check of the selected spell’s school usually against a DC of 15 + 2/ spell level (15 for cantrips, 17 for 1st level, etc.). If the check succeeds, then the spell takes effect normally. If it fails, the character still uses the spell slot, but the spell fizzles without effect.
If the check fails by 10 or more, then the spell backfires . A harmful spell (like ray of enfeeblement, fireball, etc) targets the character. A not harmful spell, like levitate, does 1d6 points of damage/spell level without save. A ray spell always succeeds at the range touch attack against the spell caster if the spell backfires. The DM is free to improvise backlashes different than those. A badly failed alter self for example may make a partial transformation etc.
The school skills can be used untrained, but this is usually dangerous.
To cast a spell of a given spell level, the caster must have charisma = the usual 10 +1/spell level. The DC of the spells is charisma based.
NOTE: More unusual spells may have greater DC to be successfully cast at the DM’s discretion.

Spells known: A sorcerer still gets spells known. These are effects the caster is most familiar with and can use them more safely. A sorcerer gains a +4 competence bonus to cast a known spell. However, the sorcerer can choose spells only from schools at which he or she has at least one rank. So unless a sorcerer has at least one rank in conjuration, he cannot select mage armor as a known spell.
The number of spells a sorcerer has known is as shown in the PHB.

Spells/day: A sorcerer can cast a certain number of spells per day as shown in the PHB. He or she gains bonus spells from high charisma.

New Feat:
School focus. This feat gives a +4 competence bonus to one school skill. The bonus stacks with the bonus of the skill focus skill. To get this feat, the caster must have at least one rank at the school skill to be augmented.

So here it is. While the sorcerer has incredible variety in the spells he can cast, he cannot cast every spell (unless he has extraordinary intelligence) and the spells will not work every time and sometimes, they will backfire. A sorcerer who wants to have access to many spells will need a high intelligence score.
While the alternative sorcerer makes a very powerful adversary, my players argue that as a player character it is dangerous since there would be about 1-2 backfires/ session.

Example Sorcerer:

Human Sorceress 3rd level. She is inclined to enchantment spells and effects to achieve her goals. When it comes to combat she relies more on her “friends” for protection.

Str 8 dex 12 con 13 int 14 wis 10 cha 15. HP 12
Feats: Eschew materials, school focus (enchantment), spell focus (enchantment), school focus (necromancy)
Skills: abjuration +6, evocation +4, enchantment +12, necromancy +10, divination +4, spellcraft +5, bluff +5, diplomacy +4, Knowledge (arcana) +4, gather info +3, concentration +4
Spells/day: 7/6 save DC 12 +spell level (+1 enchantment)
Cast DC 15/17
Spells known: 0: disrupt undead, resistance, detect magic, read magic, light
1st: charm person, magic missile, chill touch

As you can see, the sorceress can fail her charm person spell only with a natural 1 (which may also mean that it backfires, IMC it is 1d20 – 20 on a natural 1). A sleep spell fails 20% of the time, magic missile fails 35% of the time (so it isn’t very reliable).
On the other hand, if she tries to use shocking grasp for example, there is a 60% of failure, 10% of a backfire and a slim 40% of success, so it very unreliable.

The problem with that is the still scary number of skill points which is even more problematic now and was one of the problems with the original sorcerer.
Sorcerers receive the same number of skill points as the wizard, only a wizard’s primary statistic is int. They only need one really good stat roll to be a good wizard; sorcerers need two decent stats: Cha and Int. If they don’t then they are less diverse than wizards in everything else such as searching for objects, spotting things, casting spells in combat with Concentration and even identifying spells via SpellCraft. It’s true that wizards do have access to more skills than the sorcerer, but most of these are Knowledge skills that are not required. This and the lack of the bonus feats is the largest problem with the class.

Now this variant exasperates the problem offering only two extra skill points per level but increasing the number of skills by eight, all of which are essential.
The example sorcerers demonstrates this, at third level she would have a maximum of 7 skill ranks in any skill with 36 skill points to spread over her 14 skills (average 2.5 per skill) rather than the 24 points over 6 skills (average 4 per skill). I hope she doesn’t ever want to craft anything or climb up a rope.

There is also the idea of ‘min-maxing’ skills to gain a bonus in spells that the sorcerer does not have access to. The example does not know the Sleep spell but she can cast it with greater proficiency than Magic Missile, a spell she did learn. It’s easy to take the schools you want greater access to and learn them through skills ignoring the actual spells while only learning spells in less used schools that one can ignore almost entirely skill-wise.

This variant also gives the sorcerer essentially unlimited access to every wizard spell imaginable. In a low-magic game where Wizards rarely encounter other wizards and rely on the occasional precious scroll, their own research and the free spells every level they are remarkably under-powered now. They may only know as many spells as a sorcerer (two new spells at every level) plus a couple extra picked up along the way. Whereas the sorcerer has unlimited spell knowledge. In a higher magic setting where wizards can research spells in libraries and borrow tomes easily and make their own spells with the money from giant dragon gold-hordes then it may be more balanced.

But what about scrolls? A smart sorcerer, with unlimited spell knowledge, could simply craft scrolls of the spells they may wish to cast in combat but cannot risk failure or backfiring on. It would get expensive but, again, they could focus on three or four schools and trust on their chosen spells and schools for everything else.

Interesting points. That's why I presented the alternative here. To discuss it and find the weaknesses. Thanks David. I hope you will answer to me again. I didn't answer just to prove I'm right or anything like that, but to hear your opinion

David of the Frat wrote:The problem with that is the still scary number of skill points which is even more problematic now and was one of the problems with the original sorcerer.
Sorcerers receive the same number of skill points as the wizard, only a wizard’s primary statistic is int. They only need one really good stat roll to be a good wizard; sorcerers need two decent stats: Cha and Int. If they don’t then they are less diverse than wizards in everything else such as searching for objects, spotting things, casting spells in combat with Concentration and even identifying spells via SpellCraft. It’s true that wizards do have access to more skills than the sorcerer, but most of these are Knowledge skills that are not required. This and the lack of the bonus feats is the largest problem with the class.

While you have a point I partially disagree. Fighter also has 2 sk.points per level and needs Str and Con to be a good fighter.
A sorcerer doesn't need a good spot/listen, search, move silently/hide etc to be a good sorcerer (while they are helpful). In fact even in spellcraft he doesn't need as high a bonus as a wizard. While it is useful to identify spell, it isn't as useful as reading from another's spellbook or creating your own spell.
The biggest problem with the sorcerer as I have seen IMCs and as my players expressed was 1. His lack of feats 2. His very limited spell knowledge. One of my players wanted to try a sorcerer and I offered one more spell known/ spell level but the spells known ended up too few still. On the other hand, a class with more skill points per level (like ranger, bard and rogue) becomes a very good class. IMCs some players forgo a level of a class to take the expert NPC class.
So I wouldn't say that the lack of skill points is one of the Sorcerer's weaknesses but I would say that skills isn't one of the strong points of the class. And I believe that is good for the sorcerer. Yet we totally agree about the feats.

David of the Frat wrote: Now this variant exasperates the problem offering only two extra skill points per level but increasing the number of skills by eight, all of which are essential.
The example sorcerers demonstrates this, at third level she would have a maximum of 7 skill ranks in any skill with 36 skill points to spread over her 14 skills (average 2.5 per skill) rather than the 24 points over 6 skills (average 4 per skill). I hope she doesn’t ever want to craft anything or climb up a rope.

The variant sorceress now has 42 skill points (7*6) while she would have 30 skill points (5*6).
I didn't think as you did about the skills (equal ranks in all class skills). I broke them down to essential, useful and less useful.
Essential: enchantment, necromancy
Useful: abjuration, divination, bluff, diplomacy, spellcraft, concentration
Less useful: all else.

And while of course more skill points would be nice (she could be good in two more schools) I really don't think that just +5 spellcraft makes her weak. 42 skill points aren't few.
Even if this sorceress didn't want to specialize in enchantment only, she could have used 32 skill points to get 4 ranks in all the schools (the maximum is 6 ranks in 6th level) and still have 10 skill points to use in spellcraft, concentrtation etc.
And BTW, I didn't want to make the variant sorcerer a class with unlimited magic potential easy means to reach this potentional.

David of the Frat wrote:
There is also the idea of ‘min-maxing’ skills to gain a bonus in spells that the sorcerer does not have access to. The example does not know the Sleep spell but she can cast it with greater proficiency than Magic Missile, a spell she did learn. It’s easy to take the schools you want greater access to and learn them through skills ignoring the actual spells while only learning spells in less used schools that one can ignore almost entirely skill-wise.

Yes, this is true. Still I don't think it is a problem. The example sorceress knew she was good in medling with people's mind so she didn't study many such spells, she is good at this anyway. While she is terrible at evocation, she has singled out a simple evocation spell to use in need.

David of the Frat wrote:
This variant also gives the sorcerer essentially unlimited access to every wizard spell imaginable. In a low-magic game where Wizards rarely encounter other wizards and rely on the occasional precious scroll, their own research and the free spells every level they are remarkably under-powered now. They may only know as many spells as a sorcerer (two new spells at every level) plus a couple extra picked up along the way. Whereas the sorcerer has unlimited spell knowledge. In a higher magic setting where wizards can research spells in libraries and borrow tomes easily and make their own spells with the money from giant dragon gold-hordes then it may be more balanced.

This is where I'm really afraid I have gone wrong. The real reason I decided to show you all. You're right. The question is:
Does the
1: lack of skill points 2: the chance of the spell backfiring/ not working 3: that the sorcerer gains access to spell levels later than the wizard
justify the unlimited spell knowledge?

On the other hand about wizards I would say:
- In Dementlieu the study of magic is practiced freely.
- In Darkon there are many secretive wizards. Some of them are evil so a wizard may kill them and take their spellbooks.
- Hazlan has an academy for wizards.
- Gold isn't sparse in Darkon, magic items are. So a Borcan noble for example may well fund the research of a couple of spells for a magic rapier.

David of the Frat wrote:
But what about scrolls? A smart sorcerer, with unlimited spell knowledge, could simply craft scrolls of the spells they may wish to cast in combat but cannot risk failure or backfiring on. It would get expensive but, again, they could focus on three or four schools and trust on their chosen spells and schools for everything else.

OUCH! Thank you. . . I haven't thought about this loophole. And it is a loophole.
However creating a scroll means you cast the spell, so a fireball scroll may well backfire in the lab where you make it. So area spells are still dangerous. But . . . ray of enfeeblement? "It backfired? Damn! I have lost 25 gold pieces and 2 XP. Not to mention 5 str. OK I rest for 10 minutes and try again."
What about a wand.

So I decided this:
In order to make a magic item the sorcerer must cast the necessary spells but with a +4 DC due to the increased effort of shaping magic and storing the effect in an item. If they fail, all gold and XP spent are lost and they cannot try to create any magic item for the rest of the day.

In order to create a wand or other charged item, the sorcerer needs to successfuly cast the spell 5 times (or once for every 10 charges) with the increased DC. Even if one casting fails, the process is ruined.
In order to create a permanent magic item, the sorcerer needs to successfuly cast the spells needed twice with the increased DC. Even if one casting fails, the process is ruined.

I do agree that the sorcerer is broken. I disagreed with people who argued it was for a long time but have since changed my mind.
What changed my mind? Prestige classes. A sorcerer as they progress in levels only gains new spells. That’s it, no new class abilities at all. However, if a sorcerer picks up a PrC they continue to get the spells (most arcane PrC offer “+1 existing spell level) BUT they also gain the special abilities of the PrC! Attack bonuses and saves are also the same most of the time. So something is really missing and broken for the sorcerer. If you’re going to play one aim for a PrC from the get-go!

I do think the freedom from preparation makes up for the possibility of learning more spells, the difference only becomes really apparent when there is large numbers of scrolls or spellbooks available for a wizard to copy from.
I do like the idea of sorcerers casting more spells at a risk due to their wild connection but there really should be a way to limit their knowledge.
And I really do not like the idea of eight new skills clogging up a character sheet, seems like simply too much bookkeeping, too many random rolls and varying skill levels.
I also disagree about altering crafting rules just for sorcerers. Part of the idea of those rules is they apply equally for everyone. There may be additional complications but changing the DCs or cost or time for one class favor others in terms of magic. It also punishes all people for a rule-loophole even if they’re not exploiting it.

Ideas:
* Replace the spell-school-skill rolls with single Spellcraft checks. It would be much simpler. And eliminates the Min/Maxing. Then 4 skill points per level makes up for the Int gap.
* Limit the number of spells somehow. Perhaps they can only replicate spells they’ve seen firsthand; they witness someone casting fireball so they can try to duplicate the magical effect. This balances depending on the high/low magic of the world. Low magic settings will have people encounter fewer spells to learn where in high level settings they encounter more. They might need to make a Spellcraft roll to ‘lean’ the spell and be within a certain distance.
* I do like sorcerers being able to ‘specialize’ in mimicking certain schools. A single feat could replace that, something granting a bonus to all Spellcraft checks regarding a single school.
* Perhaps they may only ‘replicate’ select schools. This might replace the bonus feats per level. ie every three levels (3, 6, 9, 12, 15, 18) they gain an additional school they can copy and mimic.

I can see some problems. A sorcerer partied with a wizard could ‘share’ spells doubling each other’s repertoire (via scrolls and casting spells to allow mimicry), but that would not be a huge deal as the spells would already be available, unlike an unlimited-knowledge sorc churning out scrolls for his wizard buddy.

You make valid point Dav and I would give them much thought. But as you can understand, I'll expect more opinions on the matter. I'll talk to my players about your proposals and I'll make some thinking.
Thank you!

Personally I like the idea of sorcerers only knowing certain spells and wizards being ones that can research more.

Its like its the sorcerer's innate gifts.

The sorcerer is broken for 2 reasons.

1. His none spell stuff is basically the same as a wizard yet he's supposed to have more b/c he doesn't spend as much time studying...and he has less b/c he won't have int as his main. Something definately wrong there.

2. He's supposed to cast more spells per day than the wizard yet at a lower level. Once you put him up against a specialist wizard the sorcerer becomes really bad. Especially at odd levels.

I think its really cool that you came up with this varient. I wouldn't use it b/c I love the idea of the sorcerer being extremely limited in spell selection. I don't think thats what makes him weak...it sets him apart from the wizard and gives him room to have more powerful stuff.

I like this variant primarily for the flavor. The aspect of unpredictability, the idea that they can occasionally pull off something that they just shouldn't be able to do. But as mentioned above, the rules still need ironing out.

As far as what's wrong with the Sorcerer as presented in the books, I'd say it should have at least 4+int skills, get new spell levels on the odd numbered levels (like the wizard), and have a d6 hit die. Something like Monte Cook presented in the Book of Eldritch Might 2, but maybe not exactly.

Really, I just think they need extra skill points and some bonus feats.

JinnTolser wrote: But as mentioned above, the rules still need ironing out.

I know. I like the same things as you do in the variant I made but . . . I could use some help with the rules. What about Dav's rule that they start with a couple of schools and later they learn more as they advance in level?

JinnTolser wrote: Something like Monte Cook presented in the Book of Eldritch Might 2, but maybe not exactly.

I liked the Sorcerer in the Book of Eldrich Might, but even there the sorcerer is weaker than the wizard. Better in other areas but not as good a spellcaster.

I talked with my players. We decided that (even with just 4 sk.points per level) the alt. sorcerer is overpowered.
Also the 4 sk.points per level just encourage the player to be nothing more than a spell-tank, using most of its skills to improve as a spellcaster and not to give flavor to the character etc.

So what about this?
The sorcerer chooses two schools at 1st level and then an extra one at the levels 3, 6, 9, 12, 15, 18.
If a spell fails but not backfires it deals 1 point of subdual damage per spell level as the sorcerer strains to contain the unleashed and unchecked magical energies before they become harmful.

He gets 4 sk. points per level to use in the normal sorcerer skills.
He also gets 2 points per level to spend specifically in the "school skills"(x4 in the first level as normal skills). The school "skills" cannot be used untrained.

To create a magic item, the sorcerer must use a spell he/she knows (i.e from the short list) since he/she must have practiced it and know it well in order to put it in an item.
He/she must make only one successful casting attempt to create the item. However a sorcerer may use scrolls etc to create magic items (if you permit this to wizards/clerics).

The example sorceress becomes like:


Example Sorcerer:

Human Sorceress 3rd level. She is inclined to enchantment spells and effects to achieve her goals. When it comes to combat she relies more on her “friends” for protection. Her schools are enchantment, divination, necromancy. Her initial schools were divination and enchantment and at 3rd level she chose necromancy.
She is working as an alchemist and uses this profession to pass unnoticed where she opperates.

Str 8 dex 12 con 13 int 14 wis 10 cha 15. HP 12
Feats: Eschew materials, school focus (enchantment), spell focus (enchantment), school focus (necromancy)
Skills: spellcraft +7, bluff +5, diplomacy +5, Knowledge (arcana) +4, gather info +4, concentration +6, sense motive +3, Knowledge (local) +4, craft (alchemy) +6
Spell skills: divination +5, enchantment +12, necromancy +7
Spells/day: 7/6 save DC 12 +spell level (+1 enchantment)
Cast DC 15/17

Spells known:
0: detect magic, read magic, disrupt undead, touch of fatigue, 1 open (when she gets a new school at 6th level she can decide use this slot)
1st: charm person, comprehend languages, negative energy ray.

Hi Alhoon,

Did you already playtest this new concept. Sounds interesting! As I successfully used your input imc (the infernal DINNER), I am imterested in how this one works...

Nope I haven't. None wants this sorcerer. They believe the wizard is more reliable even if less powerful.
I have used the first variation as an enemy but after two backfires in a row, he killed himself without the party to rise a even a crossbow against him. He was possessed by Toben the Many at the time.

however as an enemy I'm sure it will work if you plan the enemy ahead of time using skills. Perhaps the villain would be a difficult enemy, but probably not too much. I would suggest this:

Sorcerer level = party lvl -1
5 - 6 Bodyguards (undead, charmed thralls, hired thugs, constructs, enslaved outsiders etc) CR = party lvl -3 (each one)

Obviously don't throw them all at once at the characters. . .
I proposed them as a power base

PS. it is "alhoon" not Alhoon.

alhoon wrote:Nope I haven't. None wants this sorcerer. They believe the wizard is more reliable even if less powerful.
I have used the first variation as an enemy but after two backfires in a row, he killed himself without the party to rise a even a crossbow against him. He was possessed by Toben the Many at the time.

however as an enemy I'm sure it will work if you plan the enemy ahead of time using skills. Perhaps the villain would be a difficult enemy, but probably not too much. I would suggest this:

Sorcerer level = party lvl -1
5 - 6 Bodyguards (undead, charmed thralls, hired thugs, constructs, enslaved outsiders etc) CR = party lvl -3 (each one)

Obviously don't throw them all at once at the characters. . .
I proposed them as a power base

PS. it is "alhoon" not Alhoon.

Hehe, I'll insert him in my game some time and then report the result. (I hope it won't be as devastating as the DINNER, alhoon . I am going to learn it, but might take a while...

As a short 3-4 hours long adventure he/she should work fine. About the name don't worry too much about it. I sometimes make the "A" error myself.