Café de Nuit

Greetings all,

I'm new here as you can see, but I plan on becoming a regular poster after reading through some of the threads and realizing what a sharp bunch of people hang out here. I generally shy away from msg boards because of the trolling and general nonsense born of immaturity and boredom. But I digress. The topic I wanted to tackle is one that has generated many interesting discussions within my gaming group; the role of Darklords in Ravenloft.

While classic advs like I6 and others often pit the player characters against a variety of dangers and obstacles, followed by a showdown with the Domain Lord. My friends and I have aways been of the opinion that Darklords should be, for the most part, left out of any good adventure as much as possible. Let me explain.

I don't mean to suggest that Domain Lords cannot contribute or enhance a session by encountering the PC's in battle. Instead I'm suggesting that for the most part, in my opinion, Darklords should be left to scheme and plot behind the scenes, leaving the meddling and interventions to their minions. They should be like the Mist, like the Dark Powers, inscrutable and mythical.

I realize that not all Domain Lords occupy the same level of importance or station in every domain. Dominic D'Honnaire for instance is a high-powered noble, but is not as unreachable as say Vlad Drakov or Azalin Rex. It is conceivable that given the right circumstances a group of PC's may rub shoulders with Ivana Boritsi or Harkon Lucas, but does that mean that they should?

I have found that keeping Darklords out of reach and elusive is crucial to maintain campaign longevity and Ravenloft's overall playability. Besides, most Domain Lords have more than sufficient diabolical henchmen and servants that can give PC's a run for their gold. Chopping off Darklord heads and kicking the crap out of cannon characters seems to me, a childish indulgence that will hurt the gaming experience in the long run.

But then again what do I know...

your thoughts?

I treat Darklords like any other NPC. They're there, they have a face and the PCs know who they are but not what they are. In my first session my PCs went to the Opera in Port-a-Luciene and saw Dominic d'Honaire. They didn't know who he was except that he was an advisor to the council. I knew he was the Darklord, but they didn't.

Your opinion of the darklord is shared by many here and even by the vast majority of Ravenloft authors (who you might meet here on occasion). The Darklord are ment to be hidden NPCs in the style of Elminster, Tannis and Bigsby to the DM. Plot tools to explaine major events. To the common masses they are just figureheads and boogymen.

The leading opinion is that PCs should'nt even know what a darklord is unless specificly told by a NPC or Secret socity. PCs from Falknovia may know that thier Lord is evil cruel dictator but they would have no reason to bealve he was anything more then a skilled human fighter.
And unless they travel the core regulary the average PC dosn't even need to konw who rules the domain next door.
To take a personal example- Even with all the newspapers, Tv, schooling and internet I can't tell you who runs nither Mexico or Canada let alone countries like India or Norway.

Jasper wrote:.. I can't tell you who runs neither Mexico or Canada let alone countries like India or Norway.

President Vicente Fox, Prime Minister Paul Martin, President Abdul Kalam, and King Harald V / Prime Minister Jens Stoltenberg.

Catman Jim wrote:

Jasper wrote:.. I can't tell you who runs neither Mexico or Canada let alone countries like India or Norway.

President Vicente Fox, Prime Minister Paul Martin, President Abdul Kalam, and King Harald V / Prime Minister Jens Stoltenberg.

Yeah, that's what you think!

lol

Welcome to the Frat,

Often in RL, its best not to have a 'hit-and-run' campaign where the players travel from domain to domain. Find about 3 domains that you REALLY like, and use them well. For instance, my players are going to be in Mordent for quite some time now. Does this mean they're bound to get bored? No, RL as a campaign setting is notorious for its:

A: Utility for GM's
B: Room for creativity

With this approach, the DL of any realm could be interpreted as the 'climax' of any long standing campaign in one set realm. Relating back to my campaign in Mordent: The climax of their time in Mordent will be investigating the house on Gryphon hill during the Noturne, having consumed some Wraithroot tea.

Players shouldn't understand what a DL is unless their characters have earned that knowledge along the way. One class in particular, The Blessed Paladin, is perhaps best played having a general idea of what DL's are.

I can understand where you're coming from on the approach of not using a DL. Just remember that RL isn't written in stone: feel free to power up/change the DLs as you please. The DL's, like everything else, are a device to be used by the GM to enhance game play.

In layman's terms: There's more than one way to skin a cat. Unless you happen to be in Valachan, where I wouldn't reccomend even touching them.

Darklords are the single most crucial and important part of any land and adventure in ravenloft. At least in Second Edition. Especially the early years when every accessory spent 90% focusing on the lord and the rest on the land.

Now they are important figures but hardly crucial. I don't think they should be dwelt on more than background figures unless it really fits the theme. Third edition is good for this with the Campaign setting barely mentioning them and no stats or names given.

Lords are important. Their psychology and mindset are reflected in their lands, to understand them is to understand their domain. But they are not the be all or end all.

The questions of Darklords is touchy. I think the scale is a lot smaller for most adventurers - you try to make a diffrence in a small way. Youi stop the zombie infestation ofr the time being. You unmask one (of 10) cults in a city. You destroy the beats plaguing the mountins but nothing prevents another from migrating there in time...

i am not adverse to using darklords are backdrops, but yeah - characters should rarely know who a darklord is because of oine simple reason: to know WHO a darklord is is to understand WHAT a darklord is. And once you know your world is not only governed by an EVIL being but that this being has supernatural powers which aid it in its evil and that it has total power over its realm...

There is little chance of anyone staying sane afterwards, once they understand that they are essentially in a land abandoned by God. And in this case, "god" is just the idea that there is some power for GOOD running the universe.

It's hard to keep playing after that! lol!

But also, I happen to think that Ravenloft should FEEL predominantly static overall: things change,b ut they need to remain static. There is no scientific progression, most realms stay ther same, etc. Ravenloft is "stuck" and when you start knocking off darklords, you reshape it in ways that eventually seem hard to justify.

(Mind you, having said al this, nothign prevents that I would run a campaign where the PCs wouldn't at last come upon the darklord. But when they did, they would likely not even now what a darklord is, just that this being is responsible forall the lesser evils they have fought til now. And, barring a LOT of luck, they would likley lose. Or only win at a HUGE cost.)

Okay, I just can't resist...

Darklord. Huah. Good god. What are they good for? Absolutely nothing!

:misori:

Darklord. Huah. Good god. What are they good for? Absolutely nothing!

Say it again, y'all!

David of the FoS wrote:Okay, I just can't resist...

Darklord. Huah. Good god. What are they good for? Absolutely nothing!

Hahaha, the connection to the song hit me like 5 seconds after I put up this topic. I might as well finish the job...

Dark! Lords! good God
What are they good for?
Absolutely nothing
Listen to me?

Ohhh? War! they oblige
Because it means destruction?
Of innocent lives

War means tears
to thousands of mothers eyes
When their sons go to fight
and lose their lives

I said - Dark! Lords! Good God y'all
What are they good for?
Absolutely nothing
Say it again

Strahd! He ain't nothing but a heartbreaker
Vlad! Friend only to the undertaker
Malken! an enemy to all mankind
The thought of them blows my mind

They have caused unrest in the younger generation
Induction then destruction-
Who wants to die?

Dark! Lords! Yeah - Huh!
What are they good for?
Absolutely nothing
Listen to me?

Strahd! He ain't nothing but a heartbreaker
Vlad! He's got one friend, that's the undertaker
Ivana has shattered many a young mans dreams
Made him disabled bitter and mean
Life is much to precious to spend fighting them these days
They can't give life, but only take it away

Dark! Whoa, Lords ...
What are they good for
Absolutely nothing
Listen to me?

Strahd! He ain't nothing but a heartbreaker
Vlad! Friend only to the undertaker
Peace Love and Understanding;
tell me, is there no place for them today?
Gondegal says we must fight to keep our freedom
But Ezra knows there's got to be a better way

Dark! Lords! Good God y'all
What are they good for?
You tell me
Say it, Say it, Say it

I can't believe I just did this...

Well, I have had players interact with darklords quite effectively. Because the party in question was well liked and often worked with Dr. VanRichten they knew something of the way Ravenloft worked. (that is, they were privy to Rudolph's own thoeries) Though the only darklord they knew by sight was Strahd, (they had in fact been instrumental in bringing the lord back after many years of absence following his defeat in I6) they knew there were others and even discovered something about Dominic. (that is to say, they discovered that a mentalist of some sort was holding the aristocracy in his grasp and manipulating everything in the domain) Now, the players knew who Dominic was, after years of involvement with Ravenloft one could hardly keep them from knowing such things, but they kept the knowledge well away from their characters. Even so, in that adventure where the players were required to attend a social function in Dementlieu, even though they would have no reason to face the dark lord, the players were absolutely terrified. This certainly helped build suspense in the session, as the players fealt they had as much, if not more, reason to be fearful than their characters.

While my adventures never involve fighting DLs and rarely involve meeting them, I always keep the option open, dependant upon what the players do. These people are the power in their realms, the movers and shakers most often, and it is in their own interest to learn what they can of meddling and powerful adventurers. Often this means that they will find a means to observe the pcs, with or without their knowledge. Once they have measured up the potential threat, then a course of action can be decided upon. This it not to say that the Lords watch every group that travels through their domains ... but wandering heroes of high repute are certainly going to catch their eye.

Otherwise, one must remember that the lords are people as well, with their own lives and interests. As someone else related, there are times when the pcs and dls may simply find themselves at the same social functions. In these cases it may not do to have the dl lay low, not if that isn't in their nature. Hell, the characters may find themselves intrigued by the more socially skilled lords and come to freely fraternize with said individuals without the dm ever revealing their true nature. Imagine if a party should actually come to think highly of a darklord and then, years later, discover their true nature ... great roleplaying opportunities there. (I can just see a group of good pcs attempting to save their friend from their very nature)

The lords need never come into a campaign. There are enough interesting people out there to keep the pcs busy without ever encountering the true power of a domain. But, with such interesting characters as the darklords available, it would be a shame to never make use of them.

Jason Am(brus) wrote:I can't believe I just did this...

Believe it, my brother!
But, this has taught us that darklords are NOT good for singing about

And Jack - I think you've got it right on the nail. That's about as close to perfect as you can get - one can't forget that, certain darklors, are guaranteed to care that 16th level PCs walking around their realm. However, the really smart ones will try, I think, to deflect their attention elsewhere so these characters would be unlikely to come knocking at their door.

I have used Darklords a few times. The only time I ever put players into a combat situation with a DL is in the adventure "The Dark Minstrel", where the PCs have no choice but to kill Baron Evensong if they want to walk out of the manor house alive. (Especially if they haven't eaten the meal before. Boy were my players suspicious of the Baron. Too bad. They used the spell goodberry to survive, then ran out of berries, and had to fight him.)

The other DLs I've used were Dominic, Strahd, and Anton Misroi. The only one they suspected of being a bad guy was Dominic, and I never revealed the source of his powers.

The thing is that many early RL adventures call for combat with a DL. This lessened as time went on, but the DLs remained in the adventures.