Café de Nuit

Hey guys, I was just in the process of creating an NPC when I ran into an issue I had never really dealt with. If a creature has natural weapons like claws they are considered armed but if they go to deliver a touch attack or touch spell, are they still considered armed? Does it change to an unarmed attack for touch attacks?

Careful when you say touch attack - it implies that the target is denied their AC bonuses from armour.

This same situation would apply to spellcasters with the feat Improved Unarmed Combat.

So for a touch spell, would a creature with claws be considered armed and therefore not provoke an attack of opportunity? Or would it need the improved unarmed strike feat?

Unless I am mistaken, the rules (PHB, think?) faily clearly states that a spellcaster with a touch spell prepared always counts as armed (that is "threatening") when the spell is active and he is in a position to deliver the touch attack. (this hiolds true even if the spellcaster does not have Improved Unarmed Strike).

I would assume, therefore, that the same can be said of any creature with a touch-based attack - they are considered armed.

If I find the page reference, I'll get back to you with it.

I'm pretty sure Steve is correct, but regardless, a natural weapon would indeed make the spellcaster count as armed and threatening at all times. Improved Unarmed Strike basically just functions as a sort of natural weapon for people, and having a natural weapon works basically the same way as having Unarmed Strike (and vice versa).

Not only that, but a spellcaster with a natural weapon or Unarmed Strike who's holding a touch spell in their hand can opt to make an ordinary attack (target get their armor bonus, etc.), rather than a touch attack, and if they hit they get to deal their unarmed or natural weapon damage in addition to delivering the spell.

Now, if you really want to give yourself a headache, play a druid with a couple of monk levels. Nothing like trying to deliver a touch spell as part of a flurry of blows while wildshaped into a gorilla to make your head explode.

MatthiasStormcrow wrote:I'm pretty sure Steve is correct, but regardless, a natural weapon would indeed make the spellcaster count as armed and threatening at all times. Improved Unarmed Strike basically just functions as a sort of natural weapon for people, and having a natural weapon works basically the same way as having Unarmed Strike (and vice versa).

Not only that, but a spellcaster with a natural weapon or Unarmed Strike who's holding a touch spell in their hand can opt to make an ordinary attack (target get their armor bonus, etc.), rather than a touch attack, and if they hit they get to deal their unarmed or natural weapon damage in addition to delivering the spell.

Now, if you really want to give yourself a headache, play a druid with a couple of monk levels. Nothing like trying to deliver a touch spell as part of a flurry of blows while wildshaped into a gorilla to make your head explode.

Oops. i just realized I had the same pic as Steve Miller... and I think you picked up on it because you referred to my answer as "Steve's". So I changed the pick.

So, yeah.... I'm, unfortunately, not steve miller.

Thanks a lot guys, I really appreciate your input. Matthias, that Druid/Monk flurry of blows thing is really intriguing though... hehehe...

Stygian Inquirer wrote:Thanks a lot guys, I really appreciate your input. Matthias, that Druid/Monk flurry of blows thing is really intriguing though... hehehe...

I should look into that... I remember a character I made that could really make that work! lol!

I don't think a natural attack could be used to deliver a touch attack spell in a single round though. It would have to be cast then delivered in a claw or flurry of blows the next round.

You could do it if you cast a quickened spell but otherwise you are right David.

Boccaccio Barbarossa wrote: Oops. i just realized I had the same pic as Steve Miller... and I think you picked up on it because you referred to my answer as "Steve's". So I changed the pick.

So, yeah.... I'm, unfortunately, not steve miller.

Oops! Well, now I feel pretty silly. Sorry Boccaccio, but yeah, I was probably just looking at the pictures. Come on, like you've never read a forum just for the pictures? Okay so maybe that's just me...

Anyways, yeah, David and Stygian are both right about the touch attack/ attack. That said, Produce Flame is *the* spell for monk/druids, seriously. (Well, that and Greater Magic Fang, I suppose.) Also, if you wildshape into something large, when you flurry you get to do unarmed damage as though you were a large monk of your monk level. Also, forget Stunning Fist, take Improved Grapple and bear-hug things to death, in the shape of a [large] bear. Now stop drooling, that's all the tips for playing a monk/druid you're gonna get outta me.

I happen to be playing a dwarven monk/druid in an FR campaign right now, though, with a DM who's a fairly huge rules-lawyer type, so all those statements have been tested and proved.

MatthiasStormcrow wrote:Oops! Well, now I feel pretty silly. Sorry Boccaccio, but yeah, I was probably just looking at the pictures. Come on, like you've never read a forum just for the pictures? Okay so maybe that's just me...

No, it's not just you... lol! And really - don;t worry. I should have noticed it MYSELF a little sooner. ironically, this picture I think works better anyways, so it was good to change it. (Boccaccio Barbarossa, you can ask Jason Am(brus), is possibly one of the longest lasting characters we've ever succeeded in making, both as a PC and later as a great NPC. I'm working to develop his family and himself for a future QtR edition. Maybe add a little flavour to Invidia... And as the picture suggests, he was generally NOT a very happy man! )

MatthiasStormcrow wrote:Anyways, yeah, David and Stygian are both right about the touch attack/ attack. That said, Produce Flame is *the* spell for monk/druids, seriously. (Well, that and Greater Magic Fang, I suppose.) Also, if you wildshape into something large, when you flurry you get to do unarmed damage as though you were a large monk of your monk level. Also, forget Stunning Fist, take Improved Grapple and bear-hug things to death, in the shape of a [large] bear. Now stop drooling, that's all the tips for playing a monk/druid you're gonna get outta me.

I happen to be playing a dwarven monk/druid in an FR campaign right now, though, with a DM who's a fairly huge rules-lawyer type, so all those statements have been tested and proved.

While it may sound blasphemous, (and a little off topic) I have never actually really played FR, despite getting (communaly with my group) the silver boxed set, WAAAAAAY back in the day... I guess I was too busy playing Ravenloft to notice at the time.