The Dark Powers

[Guardian of Twilight]

I was just wondering if anyone here has actually in their campaigns revealed what the Dark Powers are. Or, at least what you have made them to be.

[Joël of the FoS]

I was just wondering if anyone here has actually in their campaigns revealed what the Datk Powers are. Or, at least what you have made them to be.

My players had a discussion close to this with van Richten and the twins (IMC, the twins are active b4 the disappearance of VR).

It was deliberately left a dark mystery, like "someone, or something, is making these rules here, and trapping these evil persons in this prison".

Joël

[Bryan1108]

We never actually revealled the DP but it was implied that they were modelled after the Cthuhlu Mythos.

[Nathan of the FoS]

I never revealed the nature of the Dark Powers, but I did decide what they were IMC. They were weird creatures from another kind of reality who were stranded in the D&D cosmos and started causing trouble. The gods of the D&D cosmos eventually succeeded in trapping them in a demiplane; after many futile attempts to escape, the Dark Powers discovered that they could draw other beings into their prison, Strahd von Zarovich being the first. The Dark Powers then used their insight into Strahd's mind to create a place which would give him maximum power, but also the maximum desire to escape the place. They are hoping that someone they entrap will find the way to break free of this prison and that they (the Dark Powers) will then be able to ride to freedom on that person's coattails.

IMC, this is why the gods were so upset about the Grand Conjunction. It wasn't that the darklords were escaping; they could hardly have cared less about that. But the Dark Powers were also escaping, and that the gods didn't care for at all.

[Rotipher of the FoS]

Personally, I'm less interested in what the DPs are than in what it is they're trying to accomplish. I've never stated that in so many words, but IMC I've hinted at the following theory:

1) The Dark Powers aren't actually concerned with materialistic matters (like supplanting gods, breaking out of captivity, etc). Rather, they're using Ravenloft to prove a philosophical point, employing darklords and others they've trapped in such terrible circumstances as illustrative case-studies. Hence, they're not interested in collecting the strongest of evil beings, or even necessarily the most evil ones; they choose which evildoers to "collect" based on their worth as corroborating evidence for a given argument, not on sheer destructiveness or malice, alone.

2) Whatever the exact point is that they're trying to prove (or who/what they're out to prove it to, for that matter), despair seems to be at the forefront of the philosophy the Dark Powers hope to substantiate through Ravenloft's examples. Loss of hope is, after all, the ultimate end-stage consequence of perpetual dread -- hence, fostering a fearful environment breeds progressive despair, even (tellingly) amidst the setting's facade of beauty -- and the fundamental injustice which permeates the Land of Mists, as villains work their wills unchecked and innocents know no true shelter, vastly exacerbates that hopelessness ... which even darklords aren't spared from, as despair plays no favorites (hence, their curses).

3) As powerful as they are, and however-many "case studies" they've yet accumulated, the Dark Powers haven't yet succeeded in this effort to prove despair to be the supreme philosophic and emotional outlook. They can't directly impose despair upon their subjects, as externally-induced states of mind will do nothing to legitimately validate their stance that hope is a futile folly, invariably crushed. They can't even deliberately squash those annoying individuals whose defiant heroism and virtue, in the face of such horror, keeps undermining the "proof" they've gathered! All they can do, to counter the opposing arguments which PCs, and other won't-give-in heroes like the Weathermays, constitute, is to keep flaunting sources of dread and despair in their faces, hoping to break them at last (which is why they went to such lengths to force Van Richten to cave in to despair, in "Bleak House": they had to discredit the doctor's hope-inspiring example).

4) If this is true, then the gods may not keep Ravenloft at arms' length because they lack the capacity to defeat the Dark Powers. (Vecna, after all, took them on single-handed, and tore his way free from their clutches without a hitch ... and he was only a demigod when they caught him!) Rather, because the DPs are actively trying to prove a philosophical point, their actions are, if not condoned, at least exempted from divine interference for the same reason that gods don't personally stop by the Material Plane and crack the heads of unbelievers: there's a far broader agreement amongst all deities throughout the cosmos, beyond the scope of any Ravenloft-specific "Unspoken Pact", that mortal-mediated contests between philosophies should be played out solely in the milieu of mortals, without gods' taking a direct hand in events.

(This brings up the intriguing, and disturbing, notion that if the DPs' efforts in Ravenloft are thus exempted from divine interference, IMC, that would imply that the Dark Powers themselves must qualify as mortals, not gods or equivalently-transcendent beings! But what manner of mortals could ever conceivably attain such power, to re-shape the very fabric of the ethereal plane to craft an entire realm or the Mists that surround it?)

5) Whatever they are, the Dark Powers -- much like the darklords themselves -- refuse to contemplate the possibility that they might conceivably be wrong in their philosophy, let alone that the things they're doing to substantiate it might be unjustified. Nor do they admit that their great illustrative experiment isn't actually turning out quite the way they'd wanted it; indeed, IMC, they'd not originally planned on having the demiplane develop in the manner it has! Still, they've kept it going and rationalized having done so, for the simple truth is the that DPs are hypocrites who won't acknowledge that they've made mistakes. Frankly, to be honest, they're more than a little childishly-petulant IMC, beneath their veneer of dark mystery and omniscience ... again, just like the darklords are, deep down, when all their glamor and melodrama and pretensions are stripped from them.


Not a typical explanation, I'll allow. But it works for me.

[TwiceBorn]

Rotipher,

I like the direction you're going in.

It also occurred to me a few days ago (before this even became a discussion topic) that perhaps beings that are like the Endless in Neil Gaiman's Sandman graphic novels might be the Dark Powers. Just think of it: Destiny, Death, Dream, Desire, Despair, Destruction, and Delirium (i.e., Madness). Whole realms and denizens are sometimes dreamed up whole cloth by the Dark Powers and the demiplane has a dream/nightmare quality to it; (Un)Death, or unwillingness to let go when the "time is up," is a fact of life among many of its residents; the twins Desire/Despair are omnipresent (especially among the Darklords); and Destruction and Delirium also have their place in the demiplane.

Dream (a.k.a Morpheus) is also known as the Shaper. As Frank McConnell wrote in the preface to The Sandman: Book of Dreams, "[Morpheus] is not a god; he is older than all the gods and is their cause. He is the human capacity to imagine meaning, to tell stories; an anthropomorphic projection of our thirst for mythology. And as such he is both greater and lesser than the humans whose dreams he shapes, but whose thirst, after all, shapes him. As Titania would say, he does not exist; and thus he is all that matters."

I think this ties in really well with your theory that the the DPs are not gods, and that they have quasi-mortal qualities about them. The gods fear Dream (and his siblings) because he is older than they are, and is the cause for their existence. Should he cease to exist, so would they. And therefore, they agree not to challenge him or to tamper with Ravenloft, which is merely an aspect of the Dreaming that has been declared "off limits" by the Dream King (this would be consistent with the graphic novels and The Sandman: Book of Dreams--the short story "Each Damp Thing" is a good example).

Elsewhere, McConnell states that "the Endless are an allegory, and a splendid one, of the nature of consciousness, of being-in-the-world. And it can't be emphasized too much that these more-than, less-than gods matter only because of the everyday people with whose lives and passions they interact." I think that also applies very well to the DPs and Ravenloft. People/DLs who live in Ravenloft struggle "to be," for the right to live. The DPs "toy" with their lives and use their passions against them (not necessarily with any kind of higher purpose or truly sinister intentions, even though there appears to be a method to the madness)... but the existence/purpose of the DPs in turn depends on sentient beings.

The Darklords have become victims of a sell-fulfilling prophecy--they have come to believe that the Dark Powers cannot be defeated, and that is why their plans to escape from their respective domains always fail. Their own subconscious guilt has trapped them in this nightmare realm, and now they believe they can't get out (the guilty get no sleep, no rest for the wicked, etc.). Vecna was an exception who dared to think beyond the box (and, as they say, exceptions prove the rules). As a demigod of arcane secrets (the only deity trapped in Ravenloft), he might have had more insight into what the Dark Powers really were and how to evade them/himself than did the other DLs.

The Time of Unparalleled Darkness might be the moment when the dream/story that is the demiplane of dread comes to an end... and Morpheus shuts the book on this dream and lets all fade to black (i.e., the consciousness of its inhabitants, its ghosts, its memories dissolve)... Some philosophers hold that there is no such thing as objective reality--it is only our ability to think, to dream, to perceive, that make us believe there is a reality outside our consciousness ("I think, therefore I am"). Of course, that doesn't mean that another dark dream can't be born from the one that just faded...

This makes the Endless sound far more sinister and goal-driven than they generally are in the graphic novels... but they do have a definite dark side! And I must say that the Endless even have the right "look" for DPs (if you wanted to give them physical form, that is).

Man, am I sounding pretentious, or what? 'Scuse me, it's getting late... time to pull the plug on the pseudo-philosophy!

[Rotipher of the FoS]

Actually, my assumption that the DPs perhaps should be closer to mortals than to deities (or to innately-evil fiends or incomprehensible Cthuloid monstrosities, for that matter) has more to do with the setting's basic themes than with any deep thoughts about human psychology, TwiceBorn. If there's one prevailing rule about Ravenloft's darkness, it's that human emotions and motivations should always be what drives villainy, not the "inscrutable" (read: DM not bothering to role-play) aims of aliens or the arbitrary misdeeds of one-dimensional "bad guy" cliches. Which darklords are invariably accounted the ideal archetypes for the setting? The ones whose goals, drives and intentions reflect the dark side of human nature, even if the darklords in question may not happen to be human, themselves.

So why should the Dark Powers -- who, whatever their motives, are the ultimate instigators of everything that makes the Land of Mists a realm of horror and darkness -- be any exception to the rule? Gods or other transcendent beings aren't people. Villains in Ravenloft should be ... or at least close enough to people for people (i.e. gamers) to fully understand them. Anything less, and you're losing the "There But For The Grace Of The Gods Go I..." factor.

[eldritch]

Rotipher and Twiceborn,
I love the rich thought you have put into the dark powers.
IMC I was toying with the notion that the dark powers were physical manifestations much like quasits or mephits of an as yet undescribed quasi-elemental plane that has strong ties to both the negative material plane and the shadow plane.

Somehow these beings became capable of planar travel and first became known to the gods. The first plane that they succeeded in traveling to was the ethereal plane and They managed to twist and corrupt a portion of the very fabric of that plane and created a vortex that dragged many of the spirits and undead from much of the planes to it. Thus the Mists were created out of ethereal spirits drawn to the corrupted fabric of the ethereal plane like a magnet and ultimately were trapped there unable to draw away.

The fiends and celestials immediately noticed the loss of souls entering their realms and placed powerful containments on the disease-like corrupted material of the ethereal plane effectively creating the Demi plane of Dread. The dark powers were no longer able to travel to other planes or return to their own mysterious plane. They were trapped. The higher powers declared the tainted region off limits and no celestial or fiend would willingly travel there knowing they would be trapped as well.

after an unknown period of time (that may have spanned centuries) the dark powers learned to use these mists to trap physical beings and lands from the prime material and other planes. The spirits that comprised the mists still have ties to their planes of origin (most come from the prime material plane) and were able to return to those planes. The exact mechanisms involved required a dark pact with the powers that exchanged power for those involved but trapped the unknowing creature inside the containment. The first dark lords arose and their lands were wrenched from the prime material plane with them.

Later the dark powers learned to trap unwilling beings using the mists and wanderers began to appear in the lands. a few were evil enough to be granted their own dark pact and were given realms either absorbed from other planes or created from the original distorted ethereal fabric.

The Dark Powers are trapped in the containment so that no more planar space is corrupted but they have managed to use the spirits drawn to them (because of their ties to other planes) to still corrupt other planes and draw material and souls into their ever expanding prison.

The higher powers are displeased but are fearful of an outbreak that might let the Dark Powers loose on the planes and so keep adding powerful containments that keep the Demiplane in check.

[TwiceBorn]

Gods or other transcendent beings aren't people. Villains in Ravenloft should be ... or at least close enough to people for people (i.e. gamers) to fully understand them. Anything less, and you're losing the "There But For The Grace Of The Gods Go I..." factor.

I couldn't agree with you more. I was just sharing some thoughts about who the "wizards behind the curtain" could be, and I'm sure that there are as many answers to that question as there are Ravenloft DMs. Truth is, I'm not even sure that the vision I articulated in this thread will be the definitive one in my own campaign, that I ever will have a definitive one, or that it's necessary to have a definitive one. Even if I did decide once and for all what the DPs are in my campaign, I doubt it would ever be revealed directly to the players/characters unless it was to be the grande finale of all campaigns (i.e., I'd be lying on my death bed, rolling my last d20). It's just an idea that came to mind. But ultimately, you're right... what matters most from a gaming point of view is that the stories are meaningful and that players can empathize to a certain degree with the human factor found in the villains

[Guardian of Twilight]

All of these are very interesting takes. In my campaign a few years ago, I kinda thought of them more as the dark desires, longing, passion, fear, hatred, etc of men made flesh. A realization of those things that drive us, or that we only admit to ourselves in the darkest, most quiet parts of our own minds... perhaps never truly ever admiting to our conscious selves that such darkness can truly reside in the hearts of men. The Id turned loose.

My players were kinda interested in everything about Ravenloft, moreso in it's Domain Lords than the Dark Powers themselves. They were truly impressed at how such in-depth detail can be given on villans, and where you almost have to question if what you are doing that you know is right truly is. They made mention even of how all the characters were better fleshed out in Ravenloft than any other gaming world, like Forgotten Realms or Greyhawk. It is always nice to see how much fun players have when they play here. Creating a hero that you truly feel is doing something, instead of being just another adventurer trying their luck at the evils of the world.

[The Giamarga]

Rotipher i just read your excellent post. As for the DPs being mortals (as opposed to divine and/or outsiders) the folks at dicefreaks have put out the imo convincing theory that the DPs are highly evolved demiliches " that have achieved the pinnacle of mortal advancement through the use of negative energy".

Your description of them trying to prove the philosophical point of despair reminded me of the planescape's yugoloths (or daemons) too. (which is another theory put forth on Dicefreaks), what else are the NE outsiders than fears, hatred, passions etc. made flesh?

In either case the philosophy is very exemplaric of Neutral evil alignment.


Check out the following threads: Ravenloft discussion (especially this post ) and Demilich discussion and Demiliches again

Ah well might as well post the most relevant posts:

For a long time I've had ideas regarding demiliches. I've never taken the time to write them on Dicefreaks... partly because I have no idea where I put the original write up from eight years ago.

Anyway, a long story short, part of the idea is that demiliches are associated with a different route to deification. They're almost a bridge between cosmic entities and gods in that they have some of the benefits of both but with few of the weakness, although on a far smaller scale in some cases. It was said in 1ed and 2ed that demiliches explored the Ethereal Plane. This is also, incidently, where many demiplanes (like the legendary demiplane of dread) emerge. There's a lot of "dream energy" in the ethereal. What if certain liches, less concerned with dominating portions of the mortal coil, look into the realm of dreams to create their own realities, places over which they have control in their entirety. As these liches intensify their connections to the Ethereal, their connection to the mortal coil decreases. While they are still partially liches, they're are also partially gods. Demiliches.

Given the stats in the Epic Level Handbook, it's reasonable to assume that these creatures are easily in the ranks with demigods, although I think that they could some... Dicefreaks adjustments to work. Now, I initially wanted to wait on work for demiliches until after From the Unquiet Grave had some work completed; unfortunately, that sort of fell apart for the time being. Considering that we have some work already done on most of the undead templates, I suppose we could start work on revamping demiliches.

[For the Dark Powers] I suggest a cabal of demiliches. And I still think that's the way to go. Imagine demiliches that have achieved the pinnacle of mortal advancement through the use of negative energy. Such beings would be nigh unto gods. And, since they're in the Deep Ethereal, where we know many demiplanes find their origins, they would be difficult to track. In such a location, a place composed of the possibilities of life in the mortal coil, creatures that true children on the Elements would have great legal claim... Certainly greater than most gods.

The Demiplane of Dread is the greatest and most successful of these experiments. The Dark Powers sometimes work together, sometimes they don't. The few that work together on Ravenloft do it because they're studying the nature of Evil, lust, power, fear, and all the other nasty aspects of mortal life without the pesky interference of gods or, just as bad, cosmic entities. By hiding out in the Deep Ethereal, they're virtually impossible to find as they don't really interact with out beings.

The creatures that are taken into the Mists are often drawn of their own accord as much as they are kidnapped. The real people that exist in the demiplane are simultaneously real as well as shades of real people that live in the mortal coil-proper. The demiplane would still require Strahd to exist... Perhaps the last time the Dark Power personally reached into the mortal coil was to entice this extremely evil man with so much potential for greatness. His final acts were the last impetus to create the demiplane. So long as he survives as a keystone of sorts, the Dark Powers can continue with their experiments.

I think one of the greatest mistakes SSS made with their take over of Ravenloft was the introduction of gods. It stands against everything Ravenloft should be. It should be a place of despair and vain goodness... The gods should be blind and deaf. Now that they've taken this position, my thought is that the "gods" of Ravenloft are just the Dark Powers allowing faith to bubble up into the demiplane, thereby allowing spells. It is faith and belief that empowers the faithful in Ravenloft, not actual gods. The Dark Powers do not (and perhaps either cannot or are afraid of) accepting worshippers. To do so could possibly allow a breach in whatever magic that bars the divine. Gods across the Cosmos are seeking ways to enter into the demiplane. For gods of goodness and justice, the idea that there are innocent beings forced to suffer without the succor of righteousness, even the possibility, is unacceptable. Evil gods simply want a piece of the pie and, more importantly, the souls of the evil men and women and are the Dark Lords. Afterall, when someone dies in Ravenloft, their souls do not return to the Cosmos at large, but are likely reincarnated after the Dark Powers feed off the anguish of the souls that are trapped. To date, the only god that has managed to find Ravenloft is Vecna and he did it accidently. The Dark Powers took him in in order to strip him of his memory of his feat, and once this was accomplished, ensured that he and Kas managed to escape as they couldn't risk a god becoming aware of their presence. It took much of their power to contain him as it was.

Cosmic entities that find themselves in Ravenloft are likewise stripped of connection to the appropriate plane; however, fiends -- being essentially the living personification of all that Evil -- receive great power in Ravenloft such to damage the delicate framework the Dark Powers established with the varioud Dark Lords. That is, such was the case until the Dark Powers discovered a way to seemingly give power to the fiends while further linking them to the demiplane, reducing any chance of the fiends leaving the demiplane while simultaneously restoring the damaged Mist.

Do all of these have be definitive answers? No. Do we need stats for the Dark Powers? Probably not. However, I think the most logical progression for them is to take them to the height of gothic evil in D&D and that is represented by the demilich.

My take on The Dark Powers and on Ravenloft.

[Rotipher of the FoS]

I'm not sure that "highly evolved" demiliches are likely to have enough human feeling left in them to suit my dramatic preferences, but it's an interesting idea. Certainly, it's better than tossing up one's hands and proclaiming it's yugoloths, which are waaaaaaay too comic-book cheesy in their approach to villainy, IMHO (mostly because I think Inajira's a total jerk ).

FWIW, I'm kind of enamored of the idea that the Dark Powers aren't a crack team of ultra-mega-super-powerful beings, at all, but actually an overwhelming number of deeply-embittered lesser entities who have pooled their (individually modest) resources, to achieve a collective purpose. At least as I've interpreted things, there's a certain element of petulance to the manner in which the DPs treat the darklords and Powers-Check-failers -- a sort of 'sour grapes' attitude of "If we never got something for nothing, neither should these creeps!" -- that beings who've actually gotten everything they ever wanted (such as the overwhelming power and cosmic knowledge of a demilich) probably wouldn't deign to bother with. People -- and remember, that's what I want my DPs to feel like, psychologically, not anything inscrutable or alien -- realistically become serial killers and sadists because they're insecure losers at heart, not the opposite.

But thanks for pointing that thread out to me, Giam: you're right, it's an intriguing idea!

[The Giamarga]

Ah well then you definitely need to check out the works of planescape and especially shemeshka's contributions to Yugoloth lore on the WotC boards. They as outsiders are belief given physical form and as exemplars of NE they exemplify just those emotions that you suggest. Your descriptions fits what yugoloths should be and often are portrayed as. The paragons of those would feel the emptiness the most - perhaps even embrace it. I can certainly see such petulance in them.

The same could be said about demiliches though. They certainly havn't gotten everything they wanted. And they sacrificed their humanity in the process, even their physical form! Also the more personal power they reach the more they long for. It is the same as with many darklords. The more they get what they seem to want the more they miss what they really need.

I'm not sure about the overwhelming numbers though. I feel that somehow the mythologies of the Halan and Ezran religion should somehow tie into this. So Nine creators from Halan mytholgy. Also how about a mixed cabal? Ezra did somehow ascend among them according to her myth. Then again those two religions are noticeably the two Ravenloft-only ones. Perhaps they're a construct by the DPs? Ezra with her tie to the Mists and prophecied 5th sect seems very much tied to Ravenloft and could well figure in somehow in the ToUD. Hala is even more mysterious. I havn't figured out how to tie her in. Will have to reread the Guide to the Mists, too.

[Moral Machivelli]

Personally, I find another planescape group springs to mind as fitting well with Rophiter's ideas,(Not perfectly, but still..)

In planescape, their is a group known as the bleak cabal. They believe their to be no deeper mening to the universe, and as a result, a good many of them go mad with dispair (I'm sumerizing quite a bit here) they keep an asylum for many people (And other beings) In sigil.

It is not too great a strech of the imagination to think that a group of people new to the bleaker philosophy(and without noticable morals) would conclude from this that dispair is the natural state of the universe (Without belief in other philosophy, their is despair.) they take the idea to someone in autority, they are ridiculed (Bleakers believe in nothing, remember)

Their asylum holds many ,many people (as well as one or two more powerful beings). Given that one member of the group comanded some arcane power, could they not somehow harness all that despair, and build a world on their belief in the concept?

With all the dispair of the madhouse pooled into one effect, all the other abilities of the DPs can be accounted for. The failure to prove the idea of dispair being a focus to existance is why thayed keep itr secreet, they'd look fools. They continue recruting people into their group (Mostly other bleakers). In time they die, but the group (Many of whom are not that powerfull) survive.

Any thaughts on that idea?

[Rotipher of the FoS]

Not sure I'd care to mix my game-setting materials that much, but it's a bit closer to the "mood" I've been trying to formulate, with my personal DP theorizing. I wouldn't care to use the actual Bleak Cabal, as I'd rather the Land of Mists' underlying cause be one that's self-contained within its "Gothic horror" theme, and not grafted on from a completely unrelated style of game-setting ("You got your Planescape in my Ravenloft!" "No, you got your Ravenloft in my Planescape!" ). But a comparable ideologically-motivated effort to what Moral's describing, to discredit the very concept of hope -- something even Bleakers aren't depressed enough to argue, IIRC; they do still tend to get up in the morning, after all -- is the sort of endeavor I think the Dark Powers might, ultimately, be working towards, at least IMC.