Café de Nuit

Reflavoring 4e to fit into Ravenloft, and Updating Ravenloft to fit into 4e.

It's out, it's been picked up by some of the Fraternity, some people are disappointed, right right. But 4e is here indeed, so let's live up to our reputation as the foremost site for Ravenloft on the web. All signs point to WotC having not forgotten us, but even optimistically it will be a number of years before official Ravenloft is released. So why not entertain ourselves in the meantime?

So this thread is about adapting Ravenloft to the changes 4e is made (yes, even the Dragonborn, optionally, don't bite my head off, jeez ) and updating the 3.5 Ravenloft materials to 4e. Normally I would be concerned about updating stats to such a new system, but take heart! We can't make any more errors than Denizens of Dread did, right?

The only concern I do have is that I want to make sure we don't try to cram 4e back into 3.5's shoes. I know that 3.5 had a lot more options and variability than 4e does right now. But let's keep in mind - all of 3.5's books are still out there. 3.5's core rules are on the web. Paizo is releasing it's Pathfinder system which is based off 3.5. So if we want 3.5, why not play 3.5? Instead, let's embrace 4e's changes and keep to the design philosophy of streamlined play and balance over specialization.

Here's my first attempt at a 4e monster: Von Kharkov's werepanthers. The lycanthropes have lost their iconic curse, but I see a lot of potential in their new diseased bites. I don't know if this is different enough from the Spectral Panther of the Werewolf to be worth another monster, but I figured it was worth a shot. I also think they'd be decent stats for the werejaguar/weretiger/wereleopard/ were-really-big-cat. If anyone even feels like testing them out, let me know how it goes!

Werepanther Level 9 Lurker
Medium natural humanoid (shapechanger) XP 400

Initiative +13 Senses Perception +10; lowlight vision
HP 76; Bloodied 38
Regeneration 5 (if the werepanther takes damage from a silver weapon, its regeneration does not function on its next turn)
AC 23; Fortitude 21; Reflex 22; Will 19
Immune White Fever (see below)
Speed 6 (7 in panther form), climb 6 (not in human form)

(T) Flail (standard; at will) * Weapon
+14 vs. AC 1d10 + 4 damage.

(T) Bite (standard; at-will) * Disease
+14 vs. AC; 1d6 + 5 damage, and the target takes 5 ongoing damage (save ends) and contracts white fever (see below).

T Shadow Pounce (standard; at will)
Requires combat advantage. The werepanther makes a basic attack, and then shifts up to five squares.

Change Shape (minor; at will) * Polymorph
A werepanther can alter its physical form to appear as a panther or as a unique human. It cannot use its bite attack in human form and cannot make flail attacks in panther form.

Alignment Evil
Languages Vaasi
Skills Stealth +14 Athletics +11 Acrobatics +14 Intimidate +10
Str 15 (+6) Con 16 (+7) Dex 21 (+9) Int 10 (+4) Wis 13 (+5) Cha 12 (+5)
Equipment hide armor, flail

White Fever Level 9 Disease Endurance stable DC 20, improve DC 24
The target is cured. < Initial Effect: The target takes a -2 penalty to Will defense. <> The target is weakened. > The target is dazed.

Nice thread idea, Izzy. Now, let's see here.

Personally, there was one potential event that made me think, 'This would be a great way to intigrate tieflings or dragonborn.', and that's Hazlik's little master plan.

I'll write it up in full proper prose sometime later, but I wanted to see what folks thought of the raw idea: essentially, Hazlik's plan works...to an extent. For Mysterious Reasons<tm>, the dire ritual's effects are twisted, resulting in the destruction of the Mulani /people/...because, well, gosh, they're not exactly people anymore, are they? You've got a good reason for a whole new species that's nominally accepted as civilized showing up in the plane, you can promote Hazlik's apprentice to Darklord when, during the climax of the ceremony, she turns on her mentor so as to ensure that every Mulani on the face of the material plane is dead, and have Hazlik's essence hanging around as a potential long term future threat.

Origionally, I was thinking tieflings for this, but then I thought, hey, wouldn't tieing them to the Gentleman Caller and Azalin's plans for the guy's offspring be a better way to bring them into the setting? Dragonborn work as coming from Hazlan/The Vaasi speaking countries, because that domain in particular is allready reputed for having a load of weirdness. The average peasent can write it off as those mad wizards preforming one twisted experiment too many and getting what they deserve.

A little rough, I know, but that's why I'm throwing it up here for thoughts before smoothing it out.

Honestly, unless they had some sort of means for disguising themselves, I can't possibly see how Dragonborn could exist as PCs in Ravenloft... what with all the witch burnings and such. It's as the old saying goes, "It's not the dragon that ultimately kills the adventurer, it's the 3rd level merchant in town."

Maybe fitting the Caliban with the Dragonborn template (with obvious modifications, like nixing the breath weapon and knocking out that charisma bonus) is a better solution?

I personally think that 4e isn't that bad a system. It's very streamlined in terms of skills, sure, but not so much more than 2nd Ed. I will say that 4e will make skill progression a LOT easier than it used to be, since a lot of very necessary skills are merged into all-encompassing categories, making specialization a lot less of a worry. I can finally max out my overall adventuring capability without having to sacrifice much needed knowledge or craft skills.

Here's some things I've been mulling over...

Number one, and I don't like it either, but I don't think Dragonborn should be playable, unless they are Outlanders. And even then, they are going to have a hard time with it. I thought about the Caliban idea, but disregarded it (see below). Now, I'm all in favor of trying to make everything in the PHB playable in Ravenloft, but some things just go too much against the grain of the setting.

As for Tieflings, they are doable in my opinion. I think they would have to almost always disguise themselves, and they'd probably be given a new name (Demonspawn, Devilspawn, anyone?). They could come about in similar manners as to 3E Calibans, being born deformed.

And as for Calibans, they should still have their place, since they definately hold a unique place in the game.

I also thought that perhaps there should be two *versions* of Ravenloft. Gothic Horror, and Fantasy Horror. The difference between the two wouldn't be great, but a few things would be there. For example, in Fantasy Horror Tieflings would definately be playable, whereas in Gothic Horror, maybe not. It refers more to the flavor of the setting the DM wants to run, rather than the actual game mechanics.

Mortavius wrote: I also thought that perhaps there should be two *versions* of Ravenloft. Gothic Horror, and Fantasy Horror. The difference between the two wouldn't be great, but a few things would be there. For example, in Fantasy Horror Tieflings would definately be playable, whereas in Gothic Horror, maybe not. It refers more to the flavor of the setting the DM wants to run, rather than the actual game mechanics.

Well, hence the option of playing Dragonborn. I've no doubt that most GMs will want to leave them out, but there's no reason not to toss them in if you want them. Not to mention, there's kobolds, crocodile men and fish men already in Ravenloft cannon - a bigger lizardy creature can hardly be that much worse..

Good idea on Hazlan, Doc, although I dunno if I want to toss the entire Mulani race just yet. Here's what ideas I had written on the subject.

As for not being mobbed... I can only assume it's like playing an elf in Tepest - it involves a lot of hiding your face.

Dragonborn

Souragne - 715

Victor shook slightly and huddled at the bottom of the boat, silently willing it to go faster. The inescapable heat seemed to permeate every fiber of his being, and in the mist the twisted mangrove roots toyed with his imagination, forming twisted figures that danced just out of sight. He turned his eyes to a mass of floating logs that looked to block their path.

"Best try to move around that log jam up ahead," he said, pulling out his spyglass to get a better look.

Viktor dropped the spyglass in horror. The "logs" were nothing of the sort, but a huge mass of the devil lizards his countrymen had told him about. And they were all dead. Their lifeless bodies stared blankly up as they bobbed in the still waters of the Souragnen swamp.

His guide noticed his reaction, and shook his head. "Merrshaulki have been stirred up 'bout here lately, m'sieu," the man said. Viktor had never bothered to learn his name. "Seems something showed up in the swamps a few weeks ago. Half think it's rivals to their leader and ruined kingdom. Half think it's their new gods. We best keep moving through."

Staring at the mangled reptile corpses, Viktor could not agree enough...

Sithicus - 698

That the Redwood Keep even bothered keeping watch was a grand testament to the ways of the past, Foxglove thought to himself. Enemies these days either came charging in, roaring their challenges, or cloaked in disguises impossible to pierce. Either way, there was no point in posting a lookout for them. Yet here he was, sitting in the cold with two other elves, not allowed to speak, staring endlessly at the same few trees.

One of the other elves' ears perked up. Foxglove casually looked over to see what he'd spotted; if he was lucky, a stag might have passed by for some quick target practice...

Hold on. There was something.

Foxglove expertly dropped from the trees without a sound, padding over towards the creature with his bow at the ready. He was circling around to flank it when the creature whirled, letting loose an earsplitting shriek. Foxglove only caught a glimpse of it as it swung at him; the scaly skin, the long muzzle filled with hundreds of glittering sharp teeth, the glowing yellow eyes-

One of the the other elves let loose and arrow, thudding into the creature's shoulder. The creature's mouth lit up like daylight as lightning blasted forth from its mouth. His muscles moving faster than his thoughts, Foxglove just barely ducked in time, as the tree behind him exploded into splinters of smoldering wood. By the time his eyes had recovered, the creature had fled.

It took a while before anyone said what they were all thinking.

"Draconian..." Foxglove whispered.

They looked at each other, then one elf fired a whistling arrow high into the sky. For the first time in his life, Foxglove ran back to to the keep...

Falkovnia - 735

It was meant to be a routine mission. A nest of kobolds had been found under the foundations of the new barracks, and the Falkfurher wanted them out of his way. The little vermin had been known to cause major trouble once they got themselves barricaded into a place, so troops were quickly dispatched to flush them out. Once all of their tunnels were found, they could easily be smoked out of their tunnels and exterminated.

It was just meant to be a routine mission. But that was before the Basilisk came.

No one knew what it really was, or what its really called. It looked like an oversized kobold, but there was something far more grand and terrible about it.

They called it the Basilisk because if it saw you, it would kill you.
--

The Basilisk sat in the warm sun, watching bemusedly as the kobolds swarmed over the abandoned barracks. One of the little blue creatures broke off from the work lines and skittered over to where he sat, offering some meager strips of jerky. The Basilisk took it without complaint, tearing into it with its massive jaws. He shook his head incredulously.

"I've never seen anything like this," he said. "I've never seen the like in my life. All I had to do is tell them about a plan that someone else made and three different warrens agreed to help me."

"You're the chief now, you have big sway," the kobold said in its rapid Draconic speak. "Besides, we all want to see it when these barracks collapse right on top of the Talons."

"Don't tell me that's the only reason," the Basilisk scoffed. "You're only doing this because I asked."

The kobold nodded soberly. "In truth, we are not used to fighting like this. We needed a hero. A Drakov, a Gondegal. Someone to believe in."

"But why all rally behind me?" The Basilisk asked. "I'm no war hero or King in Exile."

The kobold paused for a minute. "You're really big," it offered.

The Basilisk threw back its head and roared in laughter...

Darkon - 760

Death flew in the night skies.

The shadow dragon Ebb screamed in fury. Her egg! Someone had dared steal one of her eggs! Shadows boiled forth from her jaws unabated. She would find them. And they would not be permitted to die a quick death.

Woe be it to any who ignored Azalin's curfew this night.
--

Vespiear moved silently through his arcane lab. The apprentices were nervous tonight, he could tell. Fools. They would not be discovered. He was too skilled for that.

"Progress," he commanded. One of the apprentices immediately ushered him to the cage where his creation sat.

It had worked far better than he expected. His creation was already conscious, regarding the world with unsteady eyes. It stared in horror at its taloned fingers, wordlessly hissing a few times before managing to speak.

"What have you done to me?" it wailed, tearing bloody gashes in its arm as if to peel the scales off of its body.

"Sedate it," Vespiear commanded. He'd come too far for it to destroy itself now. His creation breathed forth a cloud of shadow, but it dissipated harmlessly against Vespiear's cold flesh. The apprentices quickly enchanted it, forcing it into magical slumber. The creature let loose a cry of anguish as its eyes shut...

Nidalia - 761

She didn't know what to do now. She didn't know where she was, or how she had gotten there. She didn't know why people screamed in fear and ran when they saw her. She didn't know who to turn to for help. She didn't even know if this was some strange nightmare, that she would soon awaken from and shake from her mind.

She didn't know why she hid when she heard the sound of marching troops. Perhaps she had heard that sound too often in her life. The troops barricaded the town and set it ablaze, with the people inside screaming questions that went unanswered.

A young boy somehow squeezed past the soldiers and ran, badly burned on his arms and legs. When they followed with their swords she picked up a stick and fell upon them. The boy kept running.

She didn't know why she returned to the town, or when such sights stopped horrifying her. Maybe it was when she had lost her faith, when the endless war had finally taken too much out of her. There were no survivors, save the boy, who she could see returning to hunt through the ruins of his hometown.

"She was supposed to protect us," the boy murmured.

"Who?" she asked, stepping into his view.

The boy started. "Back! Back, servant of Banemaw!" he cried, trying to run, but his burned legs could take no more abuse.

"So Lady Faithhold was protecting us... from you!" the boy sobbed, as she towered over him. "She will prevail! She will prevail!" he yelled defiantly, before collapsing into hysterical laughter.

She left him there, still crying Lady Faithhold's praises, and traveled back to where the dead soldiers were lying. She picked up one of the swords, hefting its familiar weight.

"Perhaps Lady Faithhold should "protect" herself instead," the dragonborn mused aloud. Slinging the sword over her shoulder, she followed the road away from the town.

Appearance-wise, I rather prefer the Tiefling as proposed in the Planescape campaign myself, quite frankly. Variety is the spice of life, don't they say?

If this is the case, then Tieflings can be as hard or easy to "fit" into the campaign as the DM and players decide. Some Tieflings will be remarkably human looking whereas others are closer to feys and others still resemble stereotypical devil-creatures found in the 4th ed material. Some odd Tieflings could even be mistaken for grim experimentations from resident mad scientists.

Some nice stuff their Isabella. While I can't speak for the rest of the Fraternity, I don't think I'll be writing any ways to adding dragonborn to Ravenloft.
If we can release a update booklet, we'll probably skip that race (if I have a say ) and focus on the tiefling and rest.

I'm still not convinced Isabella (though very nice fiction). Dragonborn are substantually larger than a human. They're 6'2"-6'8" on average and 250+ lbs. They couldn't just throw a cloak over their heads and walk about town.

And yes, Ravenloft has Kobolds and Crocodile-Men, but they aren't seen in the cities, and if they are, they're killed by the townsfolk. From reading your fiction it seems their place is more that of monsters than a PC race.

I'm all in favor if it can be made to fit the setting, but I really feel that it would be compromising too much of the feel by putting them in. Again, that saddens me, because I like to find a way to fit everything in to give players the option (I also think it enriches the setting), but some things are just too much, IMO.

Excellent work, Isabella.

But in the end, I see them as exceptions too. Could be fun to play one, but with extreme social difficulties; or much easier as a DM tool - another monster (your tales are very inspiring for this).

Joël

If I may, I found the Kobold/Dragonborn piece to be quite fun. Good work on that one Isabella, but can I ask if you were in any way inspired by The Quintessential Kobold for that story?

I have a special place in my heart for underdogs.

And exactly why dragonborn have to LOOK like big lizards? Their only magic power is a draconic breath, and there is no reason why they cannot look human and still have it.

I would envision Ravenloft dragonborn as mostly human, but with some draconic features: black blood, black tongue, carnivore teeth, dragon-like eyes, claws etc. Probably hairless, with head bald or covered with horn or scales.

They could be humans transformed by drinking dragon blood or eating dragon heart, similarly to the legendary Sigurd.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sigurd

If you would like them to resemble somewhat more der gehornte Siegfried (horn-covered Sigurd), I would give them scale armour instead of draconic breath. Their body would be covered with scales, counting as a level-appropriate armor they are proficient with (eg for paladin plate, for fighter scale, for a wizard with Armor Proficiency (leather) - leather armor). They would, of course, be able to speak with animals.

Nice work, Isabella, and nice point, Baduin.

I was thinking a similar thing, really: Tie the Dragonborn into the whole Deep One mythology. Instead of ties to the dragons being something to celebrate and be proud of, it's vaguely shameful. Things, horrible Things came to your home, mated with your ancestors, and now you're a little less than human. You came out of your mother with pieces of shell around you. You sometimes get...urges.

And maybe that's just a story. Sure, the Dragonborn say they're essentially large Kobods, but who knows? The strange alien dream-ships of the astral race known only to conspiracy theorists, madmen, and the Kargat as the 'gith' certainly are interested in them...

For me, it's a matter of saying yes. A DM can always leave a group out of their campaign, but the option should be there. Otherwise, you get to the point where you're not crafting the campaign around the system, but the system around the campaign, and that's a slippery slope into "Elves shouldn't have guild holdings because they are one with nature." land. And that's a terrible place to be. Splitting Ravenloft into two seperate worlds just to fit the very narrow and vague constraints of gothic horror just seems, to me, to be missing the point of the setting. It's a world that literarly grows and shrinks in accordance with the Dark Powers's view of how the story should be. Why not explore the full breadth and with of the fantistic and the horrifing? If you don't want to use a certain Domain or elements for your game, say the Mists have closed it off, or just don't mention it.

That said, this wasn't set up to be a debate thread, but a conversion thread. I probably shouldn't have started off with a controversial subject, my bad. It just seems like most of my ideas circle around that sort of stuff, yeesh. I suck. I'll try and throw up some stats for, I dunno, the Weathermay girls in a day or two.

Yam, that's a nice constructive discussion you have here, and I like how Dragonborn turn out.
But on another view, we could use Dragonborn statistics for calibans also!

I would add that we would probably need some serious rules about lycanthropy, a way to contact it etc.
Of course something for horror, madness, etc, but please, let's not end up again with random tables. Let's leave it a bit more fluid and elegant.

Another interesting issue is the issue of magic: many areas in ravenloft are areas of very low magic, and it is sometimes tricky to keep the balance.

I am making something similar in a 7thSea conversion thread, but it is a bit too drastic - after all in Ravenloft every paragon tier PC is expected to have a few magic items.

*************SPOILER AHEAD, IF SOMEBODY PLANS TO BE MY PLAYER, DO NOT READ THIS***************



Last but not least I am thinking that Warforged statistics make perfect stats for human-shaped Cylons. Have you watched Battlestar Gallactica? I cannot think many things more gothic than the concept of
1) a golem-like race created by human, that got its own dark impulses
2) then created human-like constructs, that operate (sometimes as sleeper agents) in human society
3) that has a deep urge to find its place in the world, and deep, maddening, religious and philosophical questions, trying to understand the Dark Powers, the one True God, and verify that it has a soul
4) doing terrible and beautiful acts in its quest of love
5) wanting to create a child that's a union between "cylon/warforged" and "human" (or elf, or whatever)

We would just need to get rid of robotic references, component items (as they appeared in the latest dnd insider article about warforged) and maybe give + 2 Wisdom to Warforged.

Joël of the FoS wrote: But in the end, I see them as exceptions too. Could be fun to play one, but with extreme social difficulties; or much easier as a DM tool - another monster (your tales are very inspiring for this).

Well that's what heroes tend to be - exceptions. Obviously, without something huge happening (like Doc's idea), you'll never have a sizable number of dragonborn wandering around Ravenloft - in fact, they're pretty decimated in normal 4e D&D anyway. They wouldn't be any more common than tieflings, which are just as likely to be burned at the stake (and which, given the number of fiends and half fiends running around in Ravenloft, will have no trouble at all fitting in). I've no doubt that most GMs will skip them all together, which is fine. I merely wrote those to make the option of them existing there at all a little more plausible.

As for surviving, it would really depend on how bloodthirsty your DM is. After all, a very tall dragonborn is going to stick out even if it hides its face. But calibans (including Shih Suren, the tiger headed man, and even an Orc, in Carnival) still manage to survive. And as a scared villager, I really wouldn't want to antagonize the hulking man in the corner for no reason other than he's big and scary. So I suspect it's really just trusting your DM not to lynch you just because he feels you "have to be."

Also, I have never read the Quintessential Kobold.

I also had a few notes on Warforged, which only fit into a few domains but fit into them rather well. Hazlan is the most obvious, with maybe a few in Darkon (everything is in Darkon), but I suspect in Ravenloft many of them will have non-magical origins...
How do they survive outside of those domains? I suspect they pretend that they're wearing armor!

Lamordia - 721

The bloody machines!

Juergen pursed his lips and cursed at the unresponsive monolith. How he hated these new assistants! They were useful, he couldn't deny that. They possessed a refreshing lack of free will and came without the socially imposed values that had driven away all of his other assistants. But half the time they would stare at his orders in non-comprehension, or return without his requested materials. It was infuriating!

He'd taken three of them apart last week, hoping to use the parts to build something half-way efficient, but something in the design eluded him. He had never held much interest in mechanics. The parts still lay strewn about his lab.

Juergen looked back at his table. Curses. The samples were no longer fresh enough. Turning to his mechanical assistant, he carefully directed it, "Go into the forests and find any lone human that you are able. Subdue it without damaging it, then bring it back here. Do not let anyone else see you."

The machine stared at him blankly. Cursing, Juergen took a wrench from his workspace and started removing the chestplate. Were his instructions just not clear enough? They had no trouble at all understanding some of the most imprecise of his commands, but they always seemed to fail him when he gave them anything important to do-

The machine suddenly flared to life, ripping the wrench from his hands with a grip like a vise. "No," it commanded, its hollow, mechanical voice ringing out from its chest...

P.S. - An interesting thought on 4e Lamordia. The iron golem was conspicuously absent from the 4e Monster Manual, but the Warforged makes an almost perfect stand in. Supposing that Warforged became semi-common in Lamordia - either exclusively in the labs of mad scientists, or even as well regarded machines that the populous wouldn't bat an eyelash at (they're only tools, after all, with no free will of their own - perfectly harmless so long as they don't malfunction). How do you think Adam and his flesh golem flunkies would feel about this new development? Interest? Anger? Jealousy?

Vechor - 700

Lauren stumbled through the underbrush, hundreds of bizarre and twisted insects bursting out from underneath her foot. She had been angry at the Vechorites before, for telling her to give up her search, for being so callous when she had told them her story. Now she realized they had been trying to save her. The jungle was completely mad - she could no more find a missing person in it than she could find where she had broke camp ten minutes ago. She had tried setting five different kinds of ways to mark her trail, to no avail. The jungle was moving.

And she was trapped out here, alone. She had run out of food three days ago. She had to scoop what water she could from pools in the forest - some of which were water, some acid, some fine wine, some living creatures, that oozed away when she touched them. Nothing was safe here. Nothing was what it seemed.

She heard something behind her, but didn't turn to look. She didn't care anymore. She was tired. So tired...

There was an explosion of noise behind her, and she whirled without thinking. Something was fighting something else - that was the only way she could describe it. One was organic, a writhing mass of flesh and limbs and animal parts. the other was mechanical, a living nightmare of whirling blades, clockwork gears, and metal parts that shouldn't have formed any cohesive whole, but somehow all worked together. And yet, there was something in the way it moved...

The mechanical creature sliced an arm off the living mass, which screamed and scuttled back into the jungle. The machine made as if to follow, but paused for a second to look at Lauren.

"Ahmi?" she asked, softly. It's eyes smoldered in the jungle shade...

Yeah, I have no problem with warforged. I'd make each one unique and toss in a little Alphonse Elic from FMA.
And tieflings work beautifully in Ravenloft.

But dragon-men... Baduin9 likely has the best idea, keeping the racial stats but making them much, much more human. But the yuan-ti already fill the role of serpent men so it's a tad redundant unless one ties the dragonborn into them (which might work, possibly making them an addition to Sri Raji).