Cyberpunk Domain-Not "Ravenloft" Enough?

[Leliel]

As we all know, Ravenloft is a setting for Gothic horror, and as such, it is usually set within the medieval period, since that is the time we usually think of as "Gothic".

However, it's occurred to me that, when you think about it, cyberpunk is pretty Gothic too. You have your heroes fighting against a seemingly omnipotent and unstoppable foe, and most of the time, you can't "win" so much as "not lose". Add in a few supernatural and horror elements, and you've got yourself a very good Gothic Horror setting-or the World of Darkness, but that's besides the point.

In any case, I realize that my opinion is frequently not the best opinion, so what I'm trying to say is:

In your opinion is it possible to create a cyberpunk or high-tech Island of Terror or cluster within the parameters of Ravenloft, and if so, how?

My way of doing it is to create a basic cyberpunk setting-the big monolithic corporation, the rampant AIs, etc.-add in a supernatural element-the megacorp has demonic soldiers, the AIs become rampant out of a desire for a soul-and my own twist-as you would expect the diector of the megacorporation is the darklord, but so is the leader of the hackers who fight againist him-and we're done.

[High Priest Mikhal]

You're talking Shadowrun, where magic and machine coexist--and not always peacefully. But that's another thread.

Cyberpunk is a genre characterized by "high-tech and low life." Heroes in a cyberpunk setting are more like anti-heroes and wouldn't fit well in most campaigns (a villainous or tragic campaign, maybe). Plus introducing high tech to a medieval-esque setting like Ravenloft destroys the ambiance. On Gothic Earth in the future, especially with magic being so subdued, such would be a better alternative (Gothic Earth 1998 is my own attempt at modern Gothic horror with real life cyberpunk elements like a corporation being the main villain).

A steampunk campaign might work, but that's not my area.

[Isabella]

If you're asking about cyberpunk specifically I'm sure you could have a big discussion about how the defining themes of cyberpunk do or don't mesh with the themes of Gothic horror and if they are compatible.

If you're just talking high tech, then the answer is a yes, especially given places like Nosos and Mordenhiem's lab in Lamordia.
I personally would prefer steampunk because it carries over the Victorian aesthetic, but the way those two are treated these days it's just a different coat of paint. The difference between System Shock and Bioshock, for example.

[Leliel]

Cyberpunk is a genre characterized by "high-tech and low life." Heroes in a cyberpunk setting are more like anti-heroes and wouldn't fit well in most campaigns (a villainous or tragic campaign, maybe). Plus introducing high tech to a medieval-esque setting like Ravenloft destroys the ambiance. On Gothic Earth in the future, especially with magic being so subdued, such would be a better alternative (Gothic Earth 1998 is my own attempt at modern Gothic horror with real life cyberpunk elements like a corporation being the main villain).

Sorry, I should have been more clear-Cyberpunk in Ravenloft would not be "true" cyberpunk, but rather "post" cyberpunk-while the subgenre has many, many elements of it's cousin, the heroes are true protagonists-they either seek to improve society or at least prevent it's deterioration-and technology potrayed as a neutral force, neither good or evil.

And Isabella: By "cyberpunk" I meant both some elements of the genre and the level of technology potrayed in it.

[High Priest Mikhal]

We'll I'll put it simply: high tech = bad for Ravenloft. Every other aspect of the cyberpunk genre is pretty appropriate, I agree.

[Gonzoron of the FoS]

While it's not my cup of tea, I could certainly see it working, as an island or cluster domain that is deep enough in the Mists to never or verrrry rarely see visitors from the lower-tech domains. One of the great beauties of Ravenloft is that it's so adaptable to the style of the DM. You can effectively make a whole new setting that's still a part of Ravenloft as long as you keep:

1) The Mists (in some form or other)
2) The Dark Powers and Darklords
3) The themes of gothic horror.

If you've got that, it's Ravenloft, IMHO.

[Manofevil]

Even Steampunk might be too much. How about... Clockworkpunk?

[HuManBing]

For what it's worth, I always thought Thief: The Dark Project and sequels could work well in a Ravenloft setting.

[NeoTiamat]

I suspect that this is one of those unanswerable questions because it hingers on an extremely subjective definition. "What is Ravenloft?"

For some, this is a very specific definition, tied to the history of the Demiplane, it's cultures and interactions. In other words, for them, Ravenloft is the Core and its mist-connected Clusters and Islands. (Disclosure: I'm like that).

For others, if it's connected to the Ravenloft canon, it's Ravenloft. (for example, the above comment about anything being Ravenloft if it has the Mists, Dark Powers, Darklords, and Gothic Horror). And there are a host of shades and variations on these views. (Is Champions of Darkness Ravenloft?....Very good question. Next!)

So this is an unanswerable question on a mass level. Now, a very good related question is "Can cyberpunk be Gothic Horror?", to which I answer "Sure? Why not?"

It seems to have workable themes, I can certainly see possibilities for extremely creepy situations (come on, tell me omnipresent AIs aren't scary). You could probably give it a Ravenloft-esque workover, Mists, Darklords, etc, etc, and you'd have something interesting.

[Rotipher of the FoS]

Heh. Anybody here read Whitechapel Gods? Not really cyberpunk, but that's what this thread reminds me of.

[order99]

Anybody remember the Cyberpapacy from West End Game's TORG? A Medevial Realm accidentally(and partially) given a cutting-edge Tech upgrade due to an unexpected Axiom shift...it included an old fashioned Inquisition with state-of-the-art Surveillance/Capture tech, Netrunning in the GodNet(complete with Heaven and Hell Realms)and a fairly Gothic atmosphere to boot.

BTW, the average citizen of the Cyberpapacy saw the Tech as a form of Magic-either as Miraculous answers to Worldy problems or as Foulest Sorcery employed by the Corrupt...

Might find a Cyberpapacy Worldbook cheap on Ebay if you look, though the Boxed set gives enough about each Realm to run it.

[NeoTiamat]

Heh. Anybody here read Whitechapel Gods? Not really cyberpunk, but that's what this thread reminds me of.

Oooooh yes, that was a creepy one. There was something about John Scared that just made the hair on your neck stand up.

[Zettaijin]

Back on the RL mailing list, one member was particularly vocal about how little actual Gothic content was featured in RL as we knew it in the late 90's and that a complete, non-politically correct but historically accurate re-write was of the essence. His vision was less than popular with many suggesting he stick to his beloved Gothic Earth variant of RL and leave everyone else alone.

Still, despite his posturing and slightly abrasive manners, he had a point: RL is what a number of individuals would like Gothic horror to be rather than what it was - whatever that "was" might be. If taken as a time period, we have historical records to peruse and upon which to base our approximation. If, instead, we choose to look at it as a literary style, fad or genre, then we need to distill key elements from a somewhat vast body of work which often looked to the past rather than the present and then with less than perfectly accurate results.

As such, RL canon is not Gothic horror so much as the product of Gothic horror's respectably large legacy. We all make various concessions to the traditions of Gothic horror, allowing for more contemporary creations such as the Hammer house vampires (I always felt that their more sinister if exploitative vampires were closer to those of RL than Lugosi's oft parodied interpretation of Dracula) and Universal monsters to share the spotlight with their literary predecessors, moody "gothic" villains (often to be taken taken much more seriously than the real thing - somehow parody and humour are persona non grata to the stern faced purists) and Eldritch horrors. The Nightmare Lands supplement went as far as introducing near-Freudian theories in canon science, while their dreamscapes were more Nightmare on Elm Street than Poe.

If some believe the inclusion of Dark Sun inspired domain Kalidnay to be downright blasphemous, others are more concerned with Darkon's Lich King and the rampant use of the undead. Eventually, some manner of compromise is reached with the option given to the individual DM to relegate certain elements to the proverbial oubliettes if he/she deems them too far removed from his/her version of RL.

We pick and choose what we like and throw away the more unsavoury rest, at times going as far as labelling our choices as "true to the spirit of gothic fiction" when not completely accurate or complete in its actual portrayal - if such a thing were indeed possible - keeping all the ghosts and madwomen, but sometimes looking away when Orientalism and subtle racism surfaces. In short, we, as individual DM, decide what gothic fiction is and work from there.

Getting back to the topic, Nosos is the closest canon RL came to "high technology" with industrial-era themes such as the prominent smokestacks polluting the city domain and trash building up everywhere.

One member of the old RL mailing list went as far as suggesting that we could possibly add some manner of electricity/energy producing power plant to Nosos and make full use of its perpetually booming coal industry.

Needless to say, some obviously voiced their concerns about the effects of such technological advances on various other domains (not to mention on politics and the economy) and I can't help but agree that it's a slippery slope at best, especially since Nosos was meant to be dependant upon others for its survival and thus not completely isolated.

I'm currently (still) working (or perhaps re-working would be the best way to put it) Nosos and juggling its almost but not quite industrial era technology and thematics with the core is a bit of a headache, to be honest. The industrial era could change the core in a very deep and profound manner, so much that nothing short of the DP's direct involvement could counter it.

Mind you a war between technological advances and the DP could be most interesting in of itself, but I digress.

On the thematic front, cyberpunk does overlap with canon RL in that we have an overbearing, distant and impossibly powerful entity controlling everything with smaller, more or less independent units working (whether they like it or not) for the greater purposes of this power. Some are actively trying to overtake their master while others have resigned themselves to be minor powers in their own right, others still have little clue as to what's going on and are little more than cogs in the machine.

The classic portrayal of corporate evil in generic cyberpunk is that of a complex alliance of economically powerful people who actually own so much that they might as well be given sovereignty over the territory. The promises of greater individual freedom in a free market economy unceremoniously debunked. They can veto laws and push for their own brand of justice simply by virtue of their ability to make or break an entire economy, thus enslaving politicians (those who don't yield are bribed or coerced in other ways) and the every man into a soul crushing daily grind. However, this collective always seems to obey a higher order, a near God-like power which is mysterious and inscrutable (is it a more powerful business man? A rogue self-aware CPU? A central prerogative filled with so much agency that it becomes like a God to brainwashed corporate suits?).

Darklords are already (sometimes willing, sometimes unwilling and sometimes simply aloof) agents of some greater power which is both mysterious and almost inscrutable (no one really knows who the DPs are and all attempts to "get one over them" has met with failure with the exception of Vecna). Azalin feels he's too good for them, Yagno Petrovna obeys them as he interprets it as the divine will of his God while ol' Count Von Zarovich doesn't care as he has other concerns (such as reuniting with his beloved).

Unfortunately, the nature of the demiplane and the status of darklord means that alliances between these individuals are few seeing as, in most cases, they have little contact with each other. From what we know, their relationship to the DP is a personal one that is rarely shared with their "kin" for reasons of security, further eroding any potential alliances. The DP as corporation theory loses steam here, but a clever DM could always focus on the fact that on the level of a PC's knowledge of the political workings of the demiplane, it seems as if everyone is against them and possibly in cahoots even if in truth the actual alliances are fragile if not completely non-existent. So long as the surface remains opaque enough, obscuring the players into buying into the concept of a vast corporate network is feasible.

Rebelling against the corporate evil is without a doubt another vital aspect of cyberpunk fiction and without it, it's just not the same. Players are constantly asked to "right wrongs" in RPG games, Ravenloft adds a decidedly very cyberpunk-like edge to this, forcing players to make heart wrenching decisions and more often than not support a lesser evil to avoid empowering a greater one. In the end, all victories are minor and cruelly insignificant.

Of course, to ensure its survival, the corporate evil must be pervasive if not voyeuristic in its approach to resource management: everyone must be watched and their every action the object of scrutiny. Possibilities of living "outside the system" (outside the jurisdiction of the corporation) are made near impossible since the very law of the land asks that you be a number and learn to like it or else suffer grievous punishment. This is where surveillance technology is invoked as mere humans cannot hope to achieve such a high level of vigilance.

Darklords already have "eyes everywhere", be it the rats of Richemulot, the obedients of Dementlieu or the dead of Darkon.

Obviously, dehumanization and the perpetual progress of technology threatening to replace humanity (for better or worse) is the backdrop of any good cyberpunk yarn. But we can skirt around this peculiar aspect of cyberpunk by replacing technology as nuts and bolts; electricity and circuitry; AI and CPU with flesh and blood; necromancy and enchantment; free will and the presence of near-omniscient "Dark Powers" capable of very far reaching calculations.

We are limited by our interpretation of the omnipresence of technology and the cyborg as a meeting of flesh and steel, computer and brain; and further limit ourselves by forgetting that there already exists a powerful way to bend reality to our whims called magic. It might not be cyberpunk anymore, but remember that I'm trying to show where RL and cyberpunk meet.

The cyborg is a being who adapts, the one who adds seemingly "artificial" components to a more organic central unit. Unnatural powers and the dread possibility of "corruption" stemming from their use could be seen as one form of cybernetic enhancement. If we subscribe to the theory of mist-created individuals, that is people who were not whisked away from some far away place but actually created by the DP, the possibility of replicants is no longer quite as implausible. And let us not forget the legacy of Emil Bollenbach and his experimentations with the new flesh.

Another crucial facet of cyberpunk lore is information and how people go about obtaining it, selling it and even perverting or subverting it for various ends. This is mirrored in the peculiar way in which "history" is carefully crafted by the DP and how humans cope by making their own individual tweaks to smooth out the inconsistencies and even rebel by "hijacking" their own history, taking it from the hands of the DP or their agents (Darkon's library is a low tech matrix from which bold hackers can attempt to smuggle priceless information at the risk of being caught). If cyberpunk deals with fabricated memories and the uncertainty of one's own thoughts as being their own, then what would you call the DP's obvious manipulation of memories and the constant reshaping of minds in Dementlieu?

Lastly, the Byronic "flawed hero" which rarely manifests itself as a player character due to the decidedly heroic nature of AD&D is by definition a trope of later gothic fiction. The noir inspired tragic/flawed hero is merely the self-deprecating descendant of the former. Cyberpunk thrives on conflicted, hardened and slightly amoral noir characters in the tradition of the Byronic hero. You could even cast the Vistana diaspora as the emergent post-apocalyptic gangland and the Caliban as the dispossessed poor and disfigured pariahs who populate skid row, awaiting a certain death to flesh out the local crowd. Corrupt politicians, greedy merchants and belligerent police officers are already a staple of RL.

Again, my aim here was not to show how goth fiction and cyberpunk could be meshed, rather I simply wanted to demonstrate how canon RL, with a simple squinting of the eye here and there, could be made into a semi-functional high technology deprived approximation of a cyberpunk setting.

And, by the time I returned to finish this post, others said the same thing in less long winded fashion... remind me to keep it short next time.

[Jester of the FoS]

It might be really possible to do as a sub-setting, akin to Masque of the Red. If doing a Modern Masque, a cyberpunk feel might work with a touch of technomancy and such.

The Core as we know it would not work. Neither would generic 'Loft, but a gothic-horror game would work very nicely with some of the trappings.

Heck, it's really just a tweaked version of Vampire.

[Isabella]

I've toyed with the idea of Ravenloft 2000. It would be a rather fun thought exercise, at the very least.