Café de Nuit

Hi guys,

I'm about to start a new campaign in Ravenloft using the "Expedition to..." book. A while ago I posted a thread asking for advice as well: http://www.fraternityofshadows.com/foru ... +ravenloft
Finally the day has come (next week) we're gonna start off our new campaign

In the meantime I've obtained the Ravenloft Campaign Setting and Gazetteer I.

Since the EtCR adventure is not very consistent/compatible with the 'real' setting I've made quite a number of adaptations; rulewise as well as plotwise.

I will post some follow-ups on the latter whilst the campaign is running. As for the former:

I incorporated most rules to be found in de RlCS as well as some netbooks (e.g. the alternative dread rules for a paladin's mount & optional paths to corruption)

The one thing I can't make my mind up on is how to handle effects of magic/smiting etc. on the "evil" alignment. I did read the errata on RlCS that replaces the notion that protection from evil etc. only works on things known to be evil, but the new errata only adds to my confusion.

Does it work as normal?
e.g. protection/magic circle/smite always works vs. evil enemies (maybe keeping the players in the mist by adding smite damage/other effects behind the dmscreen)

Does a protection from evil spell also protect the players from being dominated/charmed/controlled by Strahd/other vampires or creatures?
The cleric will probably have magic circle vs evil "turned on" the entire campaign and it would be quite a hoser for the plotline.

Is the Detect Evil spell (& the Paladin's ability) automatically replaced by detect chaos or does it fail and is a new casting/memorizing of detect chaos the only way?

I have considered to eliminate alignment from the game and let players have a dynamic alignment according to their actions but this ofcourse doesn't work for most monsters hence I dropped it.

Another question considers the powers check for breaking Tenets/Vows/Oaths

I don't understand how breaking a vow from an good/neutral/evil (read another) faith can result in a powers check. The fact is I have a paladin and a cleric in my party and have requested them to list all their Vows etc. If I'm reading the rules correctly if one of the other two PC's, e.g. the thief breaks a vow of the paladin he should make a powers check, is this correct?
I.m.o. the powers check would only be applicable to ones own faith making the good/neutral/evil faith colums obsolete. Can someone please explain why those columns are there?

Hoping you guys can help me out on these questions.
As said I will post some details on how I'm 'fixing' the plotline(s) soon.

Thanks!
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MoshiMaro wrote:Hi guys,
Is the Detect Evil spell (& the Paladin's ability) automatically replaced by detect chaos or does it fail and is a new casting/memorizing of detect chaos the only way?

If it's the spell, it fails--and any spellcaster who's a native of Ravenloft knows that you can't detect evil magically, so keep that in mind depending on the kind of game you're running. The paladin's ability shifts to detect chaos as soon as he enters Ravenloft, and the paladin will be aware of this change.

Another question considers the powers check for breaking Tenets/Vows/Oaths

I don't understand how breaking a vow from an good/neutral/evil (read another) faith can result in a powers check. The fact is I have a paladin and a cleric in my party and have requested them to list all their Vows etc. If I'm reading the rules correctly if one of the other two PC's, e.g. the thief breaks a vow of the paladin he should make a powers check, is this correct?
I.m.o. the powers check would only be applicable to ones own faith making the good/neutral/evil faith colums obsolete. Can someone please explain why those columns are there?

The "Breaking Tenets/Vows/Oaths" column applies to other faiths if the character has agreed to respect the rules of that faith, even if he doesn't follow it himself.

I'm letting the party enter Barovia through the Mists from the Forgotten Realms so they're not native and known with the world. They'll discover the changes gradually.


As for the powers check: How is one considered to agree to the rules of that faith? Does it require an active stating by the player he does, or can it happen subconscious?

Thanks

Check out the protection from evil entry in the altrered magic section. It works normally, except the DM applies the deflection bonus secretly without telling the players if the attacker is evil. Since smite evil isn't listed as an altered class ability in paladin section the class chapter, I assume it works similarly. DM applies the extra smite damage if it applies, but doesn't tell the paaldin (unless it's obvious, then go ahead and tell them. but if a paladin enters combat, most of the time he's already convinced that his foe evil, no?)

Since the protection from evil changes don't mention any change to the protection from mental control, I don't think it changes. However, I don't think it would be unreasonable to let a darklord override that. (Consider the Enchantment section of the altered magic chapter. It only covers what happens when you try to control something the darklord already controls, not what happens when you attempt to block a darklord from controlling somehting. But clearly darklords who can dominate can do so better than anyone else in the demiplane.)

Other vampires, however, will just have to wait until the Magic Circle runs out in an hour or two..

MoshiMaro wrote: The one thing I can't make my mind up on is how to handle effects of magic/smiting etc. on the "evil" alignment. I did read the errata on RlCS that replaces the notion that protection from evil etc. only works on things known to be evil, but the new errata only adds to my confusion.

Does it work as normal?
e.g. protection/magic circle/smite always works vs. evil enemies (maybe keeping the players in the mist by adding smite damage/other effects behind the dmscreen)

I imagine smite evil works normally.
The easiest way to handle it is ask how much extra damage it does, or have the PC tell you (15 damage plus 3 if they're evil) but don't tell them if it has been applied or not.

MoshiMaro wrote:Does a protection from evil spell also protect the players from being dominated/charmed/controlled by Strahd/other vampires or creatures?
The cleric will probably have magic circle vs evil "turned on" the entire campaign and it would be quite a hoser for the plotline.

Prot evil lasts a minute per level and Magic circle lasts 10 minutes per level. Keep track of time. Strahd is smart enough to watch them cast it a couple times, time the length, and ambush the party 1 round before it expires.

MoshiMaro wrote:Is the Detect Evil spell (& the Paladin's ability) automatically replaced by detect chaos or does it fail and is a new casting/memorizing of detect chaos the only way?

IIRC they detect chaos as well as fiends (evil outsiders) and true innocents.

MoshiMaro wrote:I don't understand how breaking a vow from an good/neutral/evil (read another) faith can result in a powers check. The fact is I have a paladin and a cleric in my party and have requested them to list all their Vows etc. If I'm reading the rules correctly if one of the other two PC's, e.g. the thief breaks a vow of the paladin he should make a powers check, is this correct?
I.m.o. the powers check would only be applicable to ones own faith making the good/neutral/evil faith colums obsolete. Can someone please explain why those columns are there?

The columns are there for consistency, but it would be really hard to break a vow of someone else's faith.
Theoretically, the party could be asked to make a vow and then break it (seeking shelter in a monastery and asked to make a vow of non-violence). If someone tricks someone into breaking a vow I imagine power checks would be in order, but lesser ones (the rogue would be essentially breaking a vow against a good faith).

MoshiMaro wrote:I don't understand how breaking a vow from an good/neutral/evil (read another) faith can result in a powers check.

Coincidentally, I had exactly the same problem last night when I was reworking the d20 Powers checks to run in GURPS, a separate game system.

Basically, I simplified the description of crimes against others (e.g. there is no difference between "routine torture" and "sadistic torture", and murder of any type is the same) and then for the Unholy Acts I basically eliminated all faiths not your own.

If you have promised to respect another faith not your own and then you break that promise, I categorized that under "Betrayal" (which is a crime against a person). So the "Unholy Acts" table in my campaign only comprises of failures against your own faith.

More details are here: http://www.fraternityofshadows.com/foru ... 541#116541

Speakign of power checks: Check out Nathan's Unified Theory of Powers Checks here for a streamlined version of the rules.

Well, did the thief promise to abide by the paladin's rules? The cleric's?

While the words are fluid, generally taking a vow seems to be something for life, like the vows you take upon becoming a priest, while an oath is something short term, like swearing to complete a quest. Both are extremely personal, and I always saw the powers check as being as much about breaking your word as it is failing your god. But one of the big deals about such sacred promises is that they are clearly important; "I give you my word." means something, especially in an era where a man's word and reputation is the only ready means of identification he may have. Without any real feasible way of confirming identity abroad, the idea of your name and your promise being something sacred is sort of like the tradition of hospitality, a necessity evolved from the ancient realities of travel.

Without getting too involved in all that, let's use an example. Say the cleric made a vow not to use poison or similar dishonorable means in combat. I would not punish the thief for using poison without the cleric knowing about it, or with the cleric realizing, hey, Jimmy's probably coating that knife with something, but I can ignore it if I squint. But if the cleric said, "Jimmy, I can't abide that stuff you make, promise me you won't be using it while we're trying to find the baron's brassiere." and the thief says, "Sure, cleric, I know it's important to you, so I promise." and turns around and poisons the first enemy he sees, I'd give that a powers check roll.

The thing about religion-based powers checks is that the offender has to know it's an offense (p. 97, Ravenloft Player's Handbook). Different faiths have different ideas of what's blasphemous and what's perfectly acceptable. For example, it's a grave offense (no pun intended) to enter a crypt in Har'Akir without offering food and/or drink to the dead in deference. Unless someone actually knew about that rule it's not a violation; if someone told them and they still broke the rule then it's worthy of a powers check--if that faith or the god the place is dedicated to is Good or Neutral.

Evil faiths never require powers checks for breaking their rules (unless it's your own) because often following their rules would require powers checks in and of themselves. It would be a catch-22 otherwise.

Perhaps some useful discussion of the matter here: http://www.fraternityofshadows.com/foru ... nholy+word

Remember that PCs' alignment and their religious practices may not match up perfectly, and worship of one god doesn't preclude respect for another. Most people in a pantheistic society honor deities according to the portfolios they embody, not their moral/ethical code. If a Lawful Good wizard lives in a world where Boccob is the only god of magic, she may feel obligated to make offerings at Boccob's temple before devising a new spell, even if she considers Heironeous her true patron.

Thanks for the quick replies, you guys really helped me out. I especially liked the alternative power check system made by Nathan as well as the discussion on alignment.

Now a few days have past and a new question has risen in my mind:

Since the party stems from the Forgotten Realms their gods do too;

The question: Are outside gods present in Ravenloft?

As far as I've read (RlCS page 50 "The Unspoken Pact") they are ,but very weak, is this correct?

What are the rules consequences of the "distance" of their home gods?

For example if the cleric would cast Augury does he have any chance there will be a reply?

Are there other spells/game rules which are affected by this fact and how do you guys handle this?

E.G. do you give clerics certain penalties on spell allotment (perhaps to encourage them to adopt a local god as pantheon?) Give them a DC penalty of -1 on all their cast spells(because of their crisis of faith) etc.


I'm curious how I can implement the feeling of the so-called crisis of faith in game terms.

My thanks in advance again.

May the dread be with you :p

Everything that contacts a deity or their servants directly is rerouted to and filtered by unknown entities in the Mists. This question goes deeply into the "What are the Dark Powers exactly?" territory, where the answer will always be: No one knows for sure.

Take the RL deity The Lawgiver as an example. Is he the same as the FR deity Bane or is he only a Ravenloft version, an echo of FR Bane. Or is he in reality the Dark Powers masquerading as Bane? No one knows.

But, i never assumed that a spell such as augury contacts the Deity directly. The spell works in Ravenloft the same way as in other worlds, but you don't get to call up your deity. Who or what answers the question is an enigma...

All rules consequences to spells are covered in the Magic chapter of the RL books. Certain spells work differently in RL. That's all.

Plus, in Ravenloft Divine casters will always be wondering if their deity really exists or not. A definitive answer to this cannot be obtained. But the same can be said for a core setting to a degree: If a cleric can worship the concept of Death, what is the deity Nerull? Is it just a filter how humans see the concept of death or is he a real being? I think this level of abstraction and uncertainty always adds to the fun.

I certainly agree that the mystery around it all adds to the fun. The thing I am looking for though is how you as DM's translate this mystery and distanced feeling to game terms. Perhaps not even in exact penalties etc. but ways how to let this emptyness manifest itself among the players.
Has anyone of you got any tricks of that kind up his sleeve?

cheers!

I think it's sufficient to tell the players that they feel more disconnected from their deity. you can use whatever metphor you like, viewing them through gauze when they picture them in their mind, feeling an emptiness in their soul where part of their faith should be etc. Also, the fact that NO ONE they meet will have any idea who their gods are. Ao? never heard of him. Temple of Mystra? what's that?

Then add in the few pockets where the FR gods are remembered, but barely. Note the similarities AND differences beteween Lathander and the Morninglord or the Lawgiver and Bane. Let them find the tiny pocket of Milil worship remaining in Kartakass. Maybe find an ex-cleric of one of the PC's faiths who's convinced his god has died and moved on to other pursuits.

The game mechanic consequences should be limited to the altered spells, and the weakened turning ability. Some things just don't work as well as they used to or work differently. That should be enough, IMHO. Anything more would just be penalizing the players for their class choice.