Epic Ravenloft

[Jack the Reaper]

Most of Ravenloft is a low-level, low-magic setting. Compared to other worlds, its size and population are so small, that should the whole core materialize somewhere in the FR, Krynn or Eberron, it would hardly be noticed. Many fans like it that way; but are those traits intrinsic to the flavor of RL? Would the theme of gothic/fantasy horror be spoiled if things were different?
Let's make an experiment of thought. What would have happen had RL been the size of a normal prime world, with population of millions in each domain? What if the level of characters and magic was more similar to this of the FR? If Azalin was as powerful as Vecna or the Shadow King, Drakov's armies were the size of Krynn Dragonlords', and Hazlan was more similar to Thay, or even to Alphatia? If the three hags were closer in level to Baba-Yaga, and Gabrielle Aderre to the Simbul? If monsters and magic were more common, like in a high-fantasy setting, including dragons, demons and creatures from the Epic Level Handbook and Elder Evils?
Some will certainly say that it would ruin the whole flavor of RL, or at least that it's completely unfitting their concepts and campaigns. Obviously, such a change would indeed be disastrous for some domains, like Mordent, Lamordia and Souragne; but couldn't some others benefit from it? Is there no place in RL for high-fantasy and epic adventures?
It might be claimed that this kind of RL is more like "FR with more vampires", which is far from what most of the designers and fans had in mind. On the other hand, I think the reason many of us dislike the FR (myself included) is not its high-magic environment, but the fact that this environment leads too often to power-gaming, flat, shallow characters, and focusing on combat instead of deeper roleplaying. But those symptoms are not inevitable results of a high-fantasy setting, and mature, experienced gamers can avoid them and run high quality roleplaying in this kind of worlds.
As to myself, I don't approve too much of this idea. I think that if executed properly and in the right measure, it might have some benefits, but also a price. And take into account, that if a 4ed version of RL will be released, it might be not too far from this vision – the Shadowfell, at least, seems to go in this direction. So it might be a good idea to start thinking how to cope with the concept of a high-fantasy RL, rather than simply rejecting it and clinging to the familiar version. What do you think?

[Manofevil]

A little OT but I've never really like the characterization of RavenLoft as a low magic setting. It falls under that heading only in the broadest sense. It would be more accurately, and IMO more properly, described as a CORRUPTED magic setting. There's plenty of magic in RL. Continents and countries are moved around and reshaped. So, for that matter, are people. Mists pick up people and things and dump them in strange places. That's a lot of magic, just not the kind anyone can practice. It really makes RL unique among settings. It isn't just the whole environment that's against you. It's all the fantasy elements, too. Pity the video game generation just couldn't get into it. Guess that's what happens when you spend all your time smashing virtual things and scoring virtual points.

[The Giamarga]

...paging Deepshadow....

DS ran an experimental epic 3.5 campaign: see this thread for a discussion of it and more links.

[ewancummins]

As to myself, I don't approve too much of this idea. I think that if executed properly and in the right measure, it might have some benefits, but also a price. And take into account, that if a 4ed version of RL will be released, it might be not too far from this vision – the Shadowfell, at least, seems to go in this direction. So it might be a good idea to start thinking how to cope with the concept of a high-fantasy RL, rather than simply rejecting it and clinging to the familiar version. What do you think?

As I don't play 4E, I could care less what version Hasbro puts out.
Let Hasbro 'cope' with the loss of sales from gamers that don't like their 'new school' stuff.

[ewancummins]

A little OT but I've never really like the characterization of RavenLoft as a low magic setting. It falls under that heading only in the broadest sense. It would be more accurately, and IMO more properly, described as a CORRUPTED magic setting. There's plenty of magic in RL. Continents and countries are moved around and reshaped. So, for that matter, are people. Mists pick up people and things and dump them in strange places. That's a lot of magic, just not the kind anyone can practice. It really makes RL unique among settings. It isn't just the whole environment that's against you. It's all the fantasy elements, too. Pity the video game generation just couldn't get into it. Guess that's what happens when you spend all your time smashing virtual things and scoring virtual points.

Good points. Magic isn't always just a neutral tool in RL. It can easily be an instrument of corruption, or take the form of inexplicable and spooky happenings.

[Zettaijin]

Even Gods can fear, in times when their popularity dwindles and they risk being replaced by newer, more relevant ones. On those days, in those times, even Gods can feel a churning in their stomach, a sudden panic as the thought of being relegated to the divine oubliettes becomes real.

So what does Elminster fear?

And what of those without access to high magic? How do they cope with living with such potent individuals?

One might liken this to (fairly) recent trends in superhero comics wherein the whole concept of super powered beings co-existing with "normal" folks makes said "normal" folks understandably edgy.

Epic-tier PCs, assuming their intentions are ultimately benevolent, could be seen as Batman-esque characters in that they fight against ever increasing odds and every threat begets a new, more powerful one. Sort of how the fall of the Falcones and sundry crime families were replaced by more sinister and powerful forces. While the guns, knives and bombs of the Falcones were in some ways "accessible" to the average Gotham citizen, Poison Ivy's plant-based powers, Killer Croc's strength and Ra's Al Ghul's Lazarus pit abuse are beyond them, much like Batman's arsenal.

Thing is, many if not all superheroes end up being normal folks with powers. For all the talk of great powers and great responsibility, the inevitable alienation and awkwardness of a Dr.Manhattan is shunned due to concerns that such characters lose their escapist fantasy quality.

The same applies to high level, high magic campaigns. The natural aloofness that should accompany the mountain moving powers is replaced, in the case of the "good role player," by common folk concerns because it allows for a wider range of emotions and situations than that of Gods playing with mortals and sometimes bickering with other Gods. Kind of like playing Peter Parker instead of Dr.Manhattan because Parker gets to do more stuff.

But then again, introspective aloofness works in some contexts, but around a gaming table? That's why I said good role players "cheat" by turning immensely powerful characters into fairly mundane ones to ensure some enjoyable shared gaming experiences. But then you'd want to use those powers some time, right? What's the point if you don't get to use those ultra powerful spells and items?

That's where the "flat character syndrome" comes from in my opinion : from the desire to use reality altering powers in a world where only a fraction of the population has them and thus tends to eliminate much of the emotional impact of mundane characters.

Umm I'm tired and my thoughts aren't as clear as I'd like them to be, so consider this a first draft of what I'm trying to explain.

[Jack the Reaper]

A little OT but I've never really like the characterization of RavenLoft as a low magic setting. It falls under that heading only in the broadest sense. It would be more accurately, and IMO more properly, described as a CORRUPTED magic setting. There's plenty of magic in RL. Continents and countries are moved around and reshaped. So, for that matter, are people. Mists pick up people and things and dump them in strange places.

You're right of course about the magical properties of the world, but when it comes to magic-users, there is a serious shortage of really powerful ones. Just to make the point, when I read the Crystal Shard novel, and it said that Crenshinibon (sp?) was created by 7 liches, I wondered if in RL such a coalition is at all imaginable; not to mention the 60 liches serving the Shadow King!

Secondly, most of the normal folk are not aware to the magical properties of the world, and hardly ever encounter them. Even when the geography changes, and domains appear or vanish, the memories of most peoples are often altered to make them believe it has always been that way (barring exceptions like the Great Upheaveal). It's rare to see great exhibitions of magic the type seen on the Realms.

[LadySoth]

Some will certainly say that it would ruin the whole flavor of RL

I certainly think so.

For me, the entire appeal of RLoft is that it is such a small intimate setting, and not just a generic LOTR knockoff.

I am a huge fan of epic gaming and high fantasy i.e. the worlds of Conan, FR, Medieval WarHammer etc. but I don't like the approach for Ravenloft.

[Zettaijin]

I reiterate: how do you roleplay someone with massive reality altering powers? How do you roleplay such a character in the context of RL without nerfing their powers (which would invalidate the point of high level/epic tier/high magic campaigns)?

Yes, you can make the threats bigger and badder, but how do you get under the skin of someone who can just Wish most of these threats into oblivion without turning it into a war of who has the biggest magical guns?[/i]

[Jack the Reaper]

I reiterate: how do you roleplay someone with massive reality altering powers? How do you roleplay such a character in the context of RL without nerfing their powers (which would invalidate the point of high level/epic tier/high magic campaigns)?

Yes, you can make the threats bigger and badder, but how do you get under the skin of someone who can just Wish most of these threats into oblivion without turning it into a war of who has the biggest magical guns?[/i]

The answer, shortly, would be: even the most powerful human, is still "only human". He has human feelings and emotions, fears and desires. He needs friendship, love, appreciation, respect and satisfaction. He has human weaknesses: pride, vanity, lust, anger, etc., which might bring the downfall of the mightiest wizard if he doesn't keep them in check. He has his fears: to be lonely, to lose his power, to lose those he loves. And the game can focus on those elements, whether you are a 1st level warrior, or a 30th level arch-wizard.

This is what I wanted to do in my former thread of "killing Elminster"- to show that, especially in RL, under all the bloated stats and hoo-ha, there is always a human being, with all the flaws and weaknesses of this infamous race. And you don't need super-powerful monsters to threaten him; playing right, he can be made the greatest threat to himself. The Dark Powers are always there to offer a helping hand...

[Zettaijin]

[quote="Jack the Reaper"]
The answer, shortly, would be: even the most powerful human, is still "only human". He has human feelings and emotions, fears and desires. He needs friendship, love, appreciation, respect and satisfaction. He has human weaknesses: pride, vanity, lust, anger, etc., which might bring the downfall of the mightiest wizard if he doesn't keep them in check. He has his fears: to be lonely, to lose his power, to lose those he loves. And the game can focus on those elements, whether you are a 1st level warrior, or a 30th level arch-wizard./quote]


I disagree, a high level magic user is no longer a mere human. Having reality altering powers not only completely changes your perception of the world but your physical self as well; you are no longer human, but almost a God.

What does pride, greed, lust, hate and love mean to someone who can cast spells with which he can decimate armies and raise the dead? What does beauty mean to someone who can see on a sub-atomic level at will? What is friendship and kinship to someone who can control emotions with a mere thought? You don't need to command armies, you ARE an army!

We're not talking about someone who can slice and dice his way through numerous armed opponents, but rather someone who can alter the very fabric of reality with the snap of a finger. That has to do something to your brain. Heck, your brain itself must be all sorts of different to even accommodate that sort of power and knowledge.

But if you think too hard about it, high fantasy loses its innocent charm.

So getting back to the original point (how to avoid hack n' slash/low role playing in the context of a high magic/high level campaign), I don't think it's possible to merge reality altering powers (i.e. high magic) accessible to players with RL-style role playing simply because of the nature of reality altering powers and their true purpose (escapist/superman fantasy).

[Sareau]

I've used Mutants and Masterminds to play in the Ravenloft setting-superheroes are no match for the darklords and their wiles, so why would epic characters be any different?

Sure, the plotlines change and the stakes go up-Bluetspur brings Spelljammer ships to the Void Between Worlds only to encounter the Chtulhoid aberrations there and hire epic levels to go out and get slaughtered, Strahd gets his hands on the Bible of Vampirism and uses it to negate all his vampiric drawbacks, Azalin orchestrates a Grand Conjnction to realign the realm so he can...

Is it that big a difference? The darklords are unique among monsters in that they are not meant to be beaten down and looted-they are expected to win any combat, handily-and this is intrinsic to the setting, which is why the darklords don't see much combat.

All I can see an epic level character doing in Ravenloft is crying a hell of a lot more as his/her damnation and redemption are going to be incredibly profound matters, possibly not transcending Death as s/he is taught the simple morals of a Horror realm...[/i]

[Paladyn]

I can sign with both hands under Lady Soth's opinion.

Look at "balck box" era setting. Highest spellcater was Azalin at 18th level and stuck wit it. He was the most powerful being in whole Core: master wizard, leader of undead hordes. Darkon was greatest realms, as the greater realm is granted by Dark Powers to more powerful Lord. So it was am marker for me: 18th level was an informal cap. And I liked it, as Lady Soth wrote it, gave an intimacy feeling. Because Ravenloft is od woods and danger that are hidden there, of mouintaints that form a barrier and imprison folks in one ace, where something sinister lurks...

Now, when you have a truly epic PC, it all goes to hell. They teleport from one end of the world to another, have power their disposal, that makes some Darklords puny and worthless (come on, how Ivana Bortisi can be terrifying opponent and nemesis, if heroes are able to shake off her poisons and even kill her or single handedly decimate her thugs?).

Of course,you can expand Core (as it was proposed several times), but I don't like idea, small measures meant, foes can always find you, no matter where you go and good you'll hide.

While power of NPC can be tone down, but heroes will always use their assets to maximize effectiveness, which on higher levels of experience, means the are more powerful than world around them. So, in my opinion, Ravenloft is best suited for play up to 10 level of experience, with slow advance option (you can find it in Pathfinder Roleplaying Game).

[HuManBing]

I dunno about "epic" fantasy, but you can definitely have high-magic "dark" fantasy and have it still work all right with an evil themed setting. The Midnight campaign setting is variously described as a high magic setting similar to where Sauron "won" in the LoTR and the forces of good are in full retreat.

For modern day examples, see Heart of Darkness and Apocalypse Now for examples of situations where even a huge amount of firepower can't save you from corruption.

I'm not commenting on epic level stuff (partially because I was only very passingly familiar with the 3rd ed. rules and not at all with the 4th ed. rules) but in my opinion, you can have a Ravenloft style domain with high-magic. It might feel different, perhaps closer to steampunk than to true Gothic horror, but it's definitely doable.

[Baron Zamedi]

Well everyone knows power corrupts; just have the character be their own source of dread as they resort to ever less benign means to achieve their goals, stepping over more innocent people as all their power comes to bare in the name of a good cause.

Meanwhile have them learn the stories of there nemesis (Strahd, Azalin, Drakov, etc) and their path of corruption so they have an idea of what could happen to them.

Make them learn what relying too much on their powers or using them irresponsibly can do to you in a place like RAVENLOFT. You would have to device situations in which the character have to make some tough decisions about how to handle things and where there is no right answer or perfect solution, even for someone as powerful as epic PC's there are times some things have to be compromised, one of those things well could be morals or integrity.

Meh, maybe to difficult to work out, anyways it's an idea