Café de Nuit

http://paizo.com/paizo/blog/v5748dyo5lbsx

I'm not happy about the rules for firearms, but I wasn't happy about the 3E rules, either. The also released playtest versions of a samurai and a ninja class which might be of interest to people using Rokushima-Taiyo.

Give it some playtesting and see if you're happy with how it works at the table. That's rather important. And it is a playtest, so reply with some actual play feedback and make it better.

This could also work for MoTrD, right?

Have they made firearms able to penetrate armor to a degree? Like ignoring 4 armor or something?

alhoon wrote:Have they made firearms able to penetrate armor to a degree? Like ignoring 4 armor or something?

In the first range increment, gun attacks are resolved as touch attacks. Which is rather stupid. Also, each shot is going to cost 11 gp and gunslingers are limited to one attack per round till level 11 when they gain the ability to reload guns as a free action.

Jadeite wrote:

alhoon wrote:Have they made firearms able to penetrate armor to a degree? Like ignoring 4 armor or something?

In the first range increment, gun attacks are resolved as touch attacks. Which is rather stupid.

That's... not a very insightful critique. How and why is it stupid?

I can't think of a better way to simulate the armour piercing power of bullets. Although, arrows could also get through armour fairly well, so it might have been better to just use straight attack rolls. They already replicate the killing potential with the high crit bonus.

Jadeite wrote:Also, each shot is going to cost 11 gp and gunslingers are limited to one attack per round till level 11 when they gain the ability to reload guns as a free action.

The cost does make the class prohibitive. They do start with a gun, by-passing that cost, but if it blows-up (likely) then they'll never get another. And the 50 rounds of ammo is also a nice starting feature, but not likely to last long.
I guess it encourages them to always have the "Secret Stash Deed" feat and 1 grit, or just expend that feat over and over on off days to build a stack of extra ammo.

Bullets don't penetrate armor. Especially not armor made out of adamantine.

Jester of the FoS wrote:I can't think of a better way to simulate the armour piercing power of bullets. Although, arrows could also get through armour fairly well, so it might have been better to just use straight attack rolls. They already replicate the killing potential with the high crit bonus.

I can. And I had for a loooong time. It's actually easy to implement:
Armor penetration: A weapon with armor penetration ignores armor or shield bonus equal to the AP value.
Armor penetration 4 for pistols, 5 for muskets, 1 for longbows and crossbows. Also AP 1 for scythes and military picks.
How to implement it? Pistol versus a guy in plate armor you just add 4 to your attack roll. Vs a guy in leather armor, you add 2 to your attack roll.
Yes, that easy.

Jadeite wrote:Bullets don't penetrate armor. Especially not armor made out of adamantine.

Swords do?

alhoon wrote:

Jadeite wrote:Bullets don't penetrate armor. Especially not armor made out of adamantine.

Swords do?

In D&D and Pathfinder, they usually don't. Which is why sword attacks aren't resolved as touch attacks.

Jadeite wrote:Bullets don't penetrate armor. Especially not armor made out of adamantine.

Your first point is demonstrably false. Rifle vs. breastplate reliably ends in a win for rifle. Even modern day ballistic vests with ceramic plate inserts are only good against a small number of shots before their stopping effectiveness falls to zero. If you factor in armor-piercing rounds or rifled slug shotgun rounds, it's even fewer than that - the first shot that hits square on can penetrate and ruin the vest, then the person in it, then the other side of the vest, in that order.

Your second point is impossible to prove or disprove, given that guns exist in real life but adamantine armor doesn't. Perhaps this explains the extreme confidence with which you assert it.

alhoon wrote:Have they made firearms able to penetrate armor to a degree? Like ignoring 4 armor or something?

If you're looking for some rule-of-thumb guidelines for houseruling, this one from Birthright 2nd ed. might help you: crossbows are intended to be much more threatening to armored foes, and at medium range they reduce armor bonus by 2, and at short range they reduce it by 5. It might need some tweaking to make it relevant to 3.75 ed. but that may be a good starting point.

Check my last post HuManBing.

Well there you go then!

FWIW, this entire issue would be made much simpler if you modeled armor as a DR mechanism instead of a hit chance mechanism.

If I recall correctly, the SPECIAL system from the Fallout computer game does that (and it was a modified version of 2nd ed. DnD rules with a prototype feats and skills mechanic added on).

Unearthed Arcana (3rd ed? 3.5? not too sure) had rules for converting armor into DR. You take half the AC bonus and make that the armor's DR rating. I believe the decision to halve it comes about because weapon damage is set pretty low, and if you converted it on a one-to-one basis, some weapons would never do any damage even on a crit.

alhoon wrote:

Jester of the FoS wrote:I can't think of a better way to simulate the armour piercing power of bullets. Although, arrows could also get through armour fairly well, so it might have been better to just use straight attack rolls. They already replicate the killing potential with the high crit bonus.

I can. And I had for a loooong time. It's actually easy to implement:
Armor penetration: A weapon with armor penetration ignores armor or shield bonus equal to the AP value.
Armor penetration 4 for pistols, 5 for muskets, 1 for longbows and crossbows. Also AP 1 for scythes and military picks.
How to implement it? Pistol versus a guy in plate armor you just add 4 to your attack roll. Vs a guy in leather armor, you add 2 to your attack roll.
Yes, that easy.

That actually sounds a little tricky as the modifier varies depending on who you attack. In a big combat it's one more modifier, as it changes if you're fighting someone in leather or plate.
And it seems more effective against the agile than the armoured. The dude in full plate still has 6/10ths of his armour bonus while the 18 Dex rogue in studded leather is down 4/8ths.

But... doesn't adamantine give you DR anyway? So you'd still be better off in that. Even a regular sword gets through that stuff as easily as steel.

HuManBing wrote:

Jadeite wrote:Bullets don't penetrate armor. Especially not armor made out of adamantine.

Your first point is demonstrably false. Rifle vs. breastplate reliably ends in a win for rifle. Even modern day ballistic vests with ceramic plate inserts are only good against a small number of shots before their stopping effectiveness falls to zero. If you factor in armor-piercing rounds or rifled slug shotgun rounds, it's even fewer than that - the first shot that hits square on can penetrate and ruin the vest, then the person in it, then the other side of the vest, in that order.

I recall Deadliest Warrior showing pistols were not particularly effective against breastplates. But rifles were.

I've read the class in full and associated rules. It needs a lot of tweeking, but it's on the right track. I don't think the touch attack thing is not going to be too much of a big deal, the class is based on fighter and as such they were going to be reliably hitting anyway.

The misfire rules seem reasonable and the fact that on a basic level a firearm is going to be only fired every other turn at low levels eliminates competition with other ranged classes.

On the right track, but I'll be playtesting the rules in my pathfinder/ravenloft campaign and submiting feedback.


(On a side note also in playtest are Samurai and Ninja. I dislike Ninja as it steals almost all of the rogue's function as a base class. Samurai is great and flavourful, but needs some wrinkles ironed out.)

alhoon wrote:Armor penetration: A weapon with armor penetration ignores armor or shield bonus equal to the AP value.
Armor penetration 4 for pistols, 5 for muskets, 1 for longbows and crossbows. Also AP 1 for scythes and military picks.
How to implement it? Pistol versus a guy in plate armor you just add 4 to your attack roll. Vs a guy in leather armor, you add 2 to your attack roll.
Yes, that easy.

Sounds a lot like the 1E "Weapon vs Armor Type" attack modifiers, that barely anyone used because they were too hard to remember.