Café de Nuit

So I've been sitting here for the last hour or so randomly reading through the RL timeline, scribbling bits and pieces and generally avoiding doing anything in the way of real work and a couple of thoughts have popped into my head.

There's no real rhyme or reason to these, so I'm just going to put down what I've been thinking.


1. Why Strahd? Why Barovia? Following the timeline, Strahd and Barovia weren't the first things snatched up by the Mists (I believe that honour belongs to the Crown of Souls, while Homlock and Daglan's Tower were also drawn into the Mists before Barovia - though drawn through time, apparently).

Sure, Strahd's actions, his betrayal and murder of Sergei, and the torment of Tatyana were compellingly dark - but since the Mists had (technically) already snatched up the Crown of Souls, Homlock and Daglan's Tower, why did they decide to start the Demiplane with Barovia?

I haven't really though this through very far - time travel does my head in - but I've never been overly fond of Strahd. So I've sort of been looking at this trying to work why the Mists decided he should be the lynch-pin. After all, his isn't necessarily the most tragic story. I'm not even sure it's the most evil. But yea...


2. I've never had the chance to read Vampire of the Mists so I was wondering why it is that, when Jander first emerges from the Mists and spares Martyn Pelkar's life, Martyn believes he has met Lathander? I know Jander is from the Realms, but I can't see why Martyn would know of a Realmsian god. As I said, I've never read the book, so I'm probably missing something important.


3. Completely unrelated to anything in the timeline, but I've been doing something about Ivan Dilisnya. Mostly because I think he's more fun than Strahd. So anyway, I was thinking about his curse and the whole issue of Ivana. With them being stuck in Borca together, I want their curses to be somewhat inter-related - the whole he ages but can't die, while she doesn't age but can die sort of thing. I haven't thought the connection through much past that.

What I was thinking, however, was for Ivan's curse to be that, while he can't die and his mind will stay as alert as ever, his body will continue to age and decay. Eventually, he will start to reek and his flesh will rot and fall away. Something that would be particular horrendous for someone as vain as Ivan. As a result, he enlists the aid of Emil Bollenbach (or some such) to create a new body for him, and has his brain transferred over. The Mists allow it, and even give him a few days to enjoy his new body - but then this body starts to decay. So, if he has a new iron golem body, it starts to rust; a patchwork golem (which strikes me a very Ivan for some reason) would start to fray and tatter; etc.

The only thing is, I have a feeling that this is someone else's curse, but can't think of who. I know that Jacqueline Montarri's heads age, so that may be what I'm thinking of. But I'm not sure.


So that's it for now. Hopefully I'll actually be able to do some "real" work now that the Mists have cleared from my head.

devilfox wrote:2. I've never had the chance to read Vampire of the Mists so I was wondering why it is that, when Jander first emerges from the Mists and spares Martyn Pelkar's life, Martyn believes he has met Lathander? I know Jander is from the Realms, but I can't see why Martyn would know of a Realmsian god. As I said, I've never read the book, so I'm probably missing something important.

I think the first thing to remember is that the Morninglord is not Lathander. Martyn doesn't know anything about Lathander, you're correct. But he sees Jander as a young child in the woods. Jander has golden skin, and looks to Martyn like a heavenly being, albeit with blood smeared on his mouth. I think Martyn's family was just killed too, and he was running through the woods in fear...it's been a long time since I read that novel.

Long story short, the Morninglord is created by Martyn in response to him seeing Jander and not knowing what a Sun Elf from Toril looks like.

I haven't read VotM either, but if I recall, Jander was a worshiper of Lathander, so that might be where the association between the two deities comes from.

I haven't read the book in years, but I recall Martyn's ill-fated group as having also been recent arrivals from the Forgotten Realms.

Ok I may be the one that has read it the most recently in the past so lets see....

Him and strahd needed food that night so they were hunting.... obviously probably tipped off by the Gypsies that there was 'new blood' in town. (my assumption not in book)

The people were from Faerun. Jander didn't want to 'kill' anyone but strahd and the people forced his hand along with his urge to feed because he can't feed off animals like he had in the past anymore.

Jander regains his senses and 'saves' the boy from strahd. Believe some morals about killing children.

The body see's Jander's skin that is 'golden' and rich. Along with his vibrant blonde hair and he bears a striking resemblance to the being Lathander. His holy symbol I believe has a picture of him holding a baby with a sun in the background. (so I'm pretty sure the guy had seen the holy symbol before and 'regonized' him as a deity)

Jander sunstar did used to worship lathander back in Daggerdale (he's the cause of that name it used to be called Merrydale I believe which ties in with one of the first adventure modules I was ever introduced to call the sword of the dales which 'Merrydale' would allow the sword to free you from any such bonds.... anyways enough of that!). I'm not sure if he was 'blessed' by lathander or he was just an elven race that had golden skin. Which he has kept even after becoming a vampire for some reason... o.O'

You might also note that he believed this land had corrupted Lathander in his form when he was saved from Strahd. Evidence was blood on his mouth (he had really just feed on one of the boy's friends...) but it fits that if a deity showed up in ravenloft most likely it'd be tainted or corrupted slightly.


Mangrum is correct about forgotten realms.

I'd also like to add....


You could throw into Leo Dilisnya for added interesting fun! The bastard child, now vampire having escaped from barovia after blood lust....

I wonder who he would side with? Ivan or Ivana? Or would he use them both in a war against Strahd? Hmm....?

Heh, next campaign I do might involve that now....


As for Strahd not being first... this is the first i've heard of that. More info please?

Everything that everyone else said sounds very accurate. I'd just like to stress again, that the Morninglord is not actually Lathander. He is based off that Faerun deity, but there are deviations; the alignment difference is the first and most glaring. There are also some differences in doctrine, protocol and such.

May not be important for your game, or it might. I see lots of potential with that difference.

Zilfer wrote:As for Strahd not being first... this is the first i've heard of that. More info please?

Strahd was first, in the sense that I6 was created first. I'm not 100% on how it works in lore, but I believe anything that happened before Barovia was pulled into the Mists is considered "false history", and a construct of the Dark Powers. Or something like that.

But just as a darklord is the anchor for his domain (with the station either switching off, or the domain dispersing if the darklord is destroyed), Strahd would be the lynchpin of the demiplane because he was the first darklord. Strahd may not be the "most" tragic (though it's probably a matter of personal opinion), but he's like the keystone of an arch, essential to its stability.

Mortavius wrote:Everything that everyone else said sounds very accurate. I'd just like to stress again, that the Morninglord is not actually Lathander. He is based off that Faerun deity, but there are deviations; the alignment difference is the first and most glaring. There are also some differences in doctrine, protocol and such.

May not be important for your game, or it might. I see lots of potential with that difference.

Which again by the views of the man, Lathander could not show up in his "pure form" here in this land which would give reason for the alignment change.... <.<

They also breach this subject in the novel.... later on the boy the man teaches... Sasha I beleive his name was. (ugh hate that name for a guy! Just not used to it! XD)

Sasha found out about 'The Morninglords' Origins and questioned his faith and were the power was coming from. I believe Jander infered that just because he previous man had believed HIM to be the morninglord there was nothing to say that his faith was not true and the morning lord did not still exist from his homeland.

I believe they actually called Jander 'Lathander' in one section of the book but I don't remember if it was Sasha or the previous guy.

Needless to say regardless of whether it's based off the prayers to Lathander or the Morninglord is a 'different being' i thought is mute because gods outside Ravenloft can still give their people powers correct? Or rather the Dark Powers can make those prayers work! XD

I mean most people in Faerun can't prove their gods are real either. (I said most xD)

Hazgarn wrote:

Zilfer wrote:As for Strahd not being first... this is the first i've heard of that. More info please?

Strahd was first, in the sense that I6 was created first. I'm not 100% on how it works in lore, but I believe anything that happened before Barovia was pulled into the Mists is considered "false history", and a construct of the Dark Powers. Or something like that.

But just as a darklord is the anchor for his domain (with the station either switching off, or the domain dispersing if the darklord is destroyed), Strahd would be the lynchpin of the demiplane because he was the first darklord. Strahd may not be the "most" tragic (though it's probably a matter of personal opinion), but he's like the keystone of an arch, essential to its stability.

That is always what I imagined but before I never thought as a false history i just thought of it at history before the land was ripped to the Demiplane... and i believe it was hinted or suggested somewhere in the books that it may be more of a "copy and paste" to the demi realm and in the prime material world the place still exists....

I've inferred a connection in my 'Raven's Bluff' campaign which is a large city near mountains and the sea that a castle nearby could be Castle Ravenloft. Now thinking about it Raven's Bluff's castle for the royalty is on a cliff.... albeit behind the walls of a city but still....

To each his own.

Sorry for the double post!

Zilfer wrote: Needless to say regardless of whether it's based off the prayers to Lathander or the Morninglord is a 'different being' i thought is mute because gods outside Ravenloft can still give their people powers correct? Or rather the Dark Powers can make those prayers work! XD

I mean most people in Faerun can't prove their gods are real either. (I said most xD)

Well, there was the whole Time of Troubles...when the gods walked among people and killed each other...

I remember the Kargatane saying once a long time ago that the Morninglord is not Lathander. And that was on purpose. The Morninglord was based on him, but since changed. They never said whether Lathander was the one granting the spells from outside Ravenloft or whether it was a power granted by something else.

Ravenloft is full of examples of deities that may or may not exist: Zhakata, the Lawgiver, Ezra, the Eternal Order, the Divinity of Mankind, etc.

Whereas you look in Faerun, sure the average person may not be able to prove the gods exist, but the books do. They outline where the gods live, and if you want, as a PC, if you get the power and ability, you can actually go to your god's home, and maybe say Hi. There's nothing like that in Ravenloft, and that's on purpose.

What does this mean at the ground level? Not much. Clerics still get their spells, and can still "fall from grace." But I can imagine a great scenario where a cleric of Lathander comes from Faerun, hears about the Morninglord, and realizes that it's not the same god or church that he followed in the past.

Of course, in current continuity Lathander is gone now any ways...

Zilfer wrote:Ok I may be the one that has read it the most recently in the past so lets see....

Him and strahd needed food that night so they were hunting.... obviously probably tipped off by the Gypsies that there was 'new blood' in town. (my assumption not in book)

The people were from Faerun. Jander didn't want to 'kill' anyone but strahd and the people forced his hand along with his urge to feed because he can't feed off animals like he had in the past anymore.

Jander regains his senses and 'saves' the boy from strahd. Believe some morals about killing children.

The body see's Jander's skin that is 'golden' and rich. Along with his vibrant blonde hair and he bears a striking resemblance to the being Lathander. His holy symbol I believe has a picture of him holding a baby with a sun in the background. (so I'm pretty sure the guy had seen the holy symbol before and 'regonized' him as a deity)

Jander sunstar did used to worship lathander back in Daggerdale (he's the cause of that name it used to be called Merrydale I believe which ties in with one of the first adventure modules I was ever introduced to call the sword of the dales which 'Merrydale' would allow the sword to free you from any such bonds.... anyways enough of that!). I'm not sure if he was 'blessed' by lathander or he was just an elven race that had golden skin. Which he has kept even after becoming a vampire for some reason... o.O'

You might also note that he believed this land had corrupted Lathander in his form when he was saved from Strahd. Evidence was blood on his mouth (he had really just feed on one of the boy's friends...) but it fits that if a deity showed up in ravenloft most likely it'd be tainted or corrupted slightly.

Well, that definitely helps clarify things. I just couldn't work out why a person not connected to the Realms (since Barovia doesn't come from there) would know enough about Lathander to make such an assumption. But now, knowing that Martyn himself was from the Realms definitely helps.

As for Strahd not being first... this is the first i've heard of that. More info please?

No, no. Strahd was definitely the first Darklord. That hasn't changed. But the Mists have a tendency to reach through time, and according to Mangrum's timeline, the Crown of Souls (etc) are snatched up in 240 BC - although Daglan doesn't actually form until 736 BC.

So was it a case of the Mists snatching them up early thinking, "Oh, we might just need these later" - or did they reach back through time and grab them when they needed them?


Of course my initial post was written at about 11pm last night - when I should have been working on a Psychology essay - so I'm not entirely sure how much sense it makes now. It was more a lot of "what if" thinking, and this was the stuff that stuck in my head. You know how it is.

Hazgarn wrote:

Zilfer wrote:As for Strahd not being first... this is the first i've heard of that. More info please?

Strahd was first, in the sense that I6 was created first. I'm not 100% on how it works in lore, but I believe anything that happened before Barovia was pulled into the Mists is considered "false history", and a construct of the Dark Powers. Or something like that.

But just as a darklord is the anchor for his domain (with the station either switching off, or the domain dispersing if the darklord is destroyed), Strahd would be the lynchpin of the demiplane because he was the first darklord. Strahd may not be the "most" tragic (though it's probably a matter of personal opinion), but he's like the keystone of an arch, essential to its stability.

In Feast of Goblyns, it's stated or inferred, I'm not sure which, that the crown was brought into Ravenloft before Strahd. I believe that is what's being referred to here.

The great thing about false history is it depends on which side of the fence you're on. One side can equivocally say that something is false, and the other side says it's completely true. And often, both are accurate, in that the history in question may have happened "elsewhere" than in the Demiplane. So it really may not be that false at all, simply false from the perspective of a native of Ravenloft.

To use an example, Mordenheim was born and had a life before he created Adam. All of that happened before Lamordia was brought into Ravenloft. To someone in Dementlieu it might seem false because Lamordia didn't exist, but it happened to Victor, so how could it be false?

The whole thing about Strahd being the lynch pin of Ravenloft is Azalin's thoughts and the basis for the Grand Conjunction series of modules. However, it's never really explained if Azalin's theory is accurate, or if there is something else that is going on that caused results Azalin predicted. Again, something up to individual DM's to decide if they want to incorporate into their games.

Mortavius wrote:To use an example, Mordenheim was born and had a life before he created Adam. All of that happened before Lamordia was brought into Ravenloft. To someone in Dementlieu it might seem false because Lamordia didn't exist, but it happened to Victor, so how could it be false?

There is, of course, also the time travel element that has already been brought up elsewhere. The history may not be "false" at all, merely misplaced. So it really is all very subjective and up to the individual DM to interpret.

Mortavius wrote:

Zilfer wrote: Needless to say regardless of whether it's based off the prayers to Lathander or the Morninglord is a 'different being' i thought is mute because gods outside Ravenloft can still give their people powers correct? Or rather the Dark Powers can make those prayers work! XD

I mean most people in Faerun can't prove their gods are real either. (I said most xD)

Well, there was the whole Time of Troubles...when the gods walked among people and killed each other...

I remember the Kargatane saying once a long time ago that the Morninglord is not Lathander. And that was on purpose. The Morninglord was based on him, but since changed. They never said whether Lathander was the one granting the spells from outside Ravenloft or whether it was a power granted by something else.

Ravenloft is full of examples of deities that may or may not exist: Zhakata, the Lawgiver, Ezra, the Eternal Order, the Divinity of Mankind, etc.

Whereas you look in Faerun, sure the average person may not be able to prove the gods exist, but the books do. They outline where the gods live, and if you want, as a PC, if you get the power and ability, you can actually go to your god's home, and maybe say Hi. There's nothing like that in Ravenloft, and that's on purpose.

What does this mean at the ground level? Not much. Clerics still get their spells, and can still "fall from grace." But I can imagine a great scenario where a cleric of Lathander comes from Faerun, hears about the Morninglord, and realizes that it's not the same god or church that he followed in the past.

Of course, in current continuity Lathander is gone now any ways...

While this is true most gods have an origin.... they really are holders of 'Portfolios' that make up the realm and types of gods/ess'.

devilfox wrote:So I've been sitting here for the last hour or so randomly reading through the RL timeline, scribbling bits and pieces and generally avoiding doing anything in the way of real work and a couple of thoughts have popped into my head.

There's no real rhyme or reason to these, so I'm just going to put down what I've been thinking.


1. Why Strahd? Why Barovia? Following the timeline, Strahd and Barovia weren't the first things snatched up by the Mists (I believe that honour belongs to the Crown of Souls, while Homlock and Daglan's Tower were also drawn into the Mists before Barovia - though drawn through time, apparently).

Sure, Strahd's actions, his betrayal and murder of Sergei, and the torment of Tatyana were compellingly dark - but since the Mists had (technically) already snatched up the Crown of Souls, Homlock and Daglan's Tower, why did they decide to start the Demiplane with Barovia?

I haven't really though this through very far - time travel does my head in - but I've never been overly fond of Strahd. So I've sort of been looking at this trying to work why the Mists decided he should be the lynch-pin. After all, his isn't necessarily the most tragic story. I'm not even sure it's the most evil. But yea...

Azalin thought it was Strahd linking himself to Barovia via his "I am the Ancient, I am the land" speech with the Ba'al Verzi dagger that did it (see I, Strahd I and II for details) - he was the first to tie himself so tightly to his realm that the Mists could snatch up him *and* the land. Further evidence - you will note that Forlorn (the second domain) has a lord who is equally intimately tied to his land before entry (by Rual's curse binding him to the grove). Har'Akir is perhaps a similar story, as the Black Lands pharaoh is obviously a Fisher King figure to some extent.

Regarding Homloch and Daglan's tower, it seems to me pretty obvious that they're being drawn in through unusual means - they're surrounded by unnatural lightning and a vortex of cloud, and still being visibly built. Whereas things that are captured and released by the Mists tend to just... appear. So that's sufficiently different to count as evidence for time travel rather than being lost in the Mists for 500 years, I think. So while the Crown might have been taken, I don't think the land had.