half-fiends born in Ravenloft

[alhoon]

Does a half-fiend born in Ravenloft the native outsider thing, receiving no reality wrinkle, phylactery etc?
Malocchio doesn't seem to have anything of the short after all, and I don't think the other children of the GC have any. On the other hand, the children of the GC don't seem to conform to traditional Half-fiend templates.

[HuManBing]

I've encountered very similar questions in my campaign, as one of our PCs is a half-Vistani and part-demon-blooded ("Shadowborn") character. Part of her personal quest is to hunt down and kill all the other Children of the Incubus and bring their life forces to Vigo Drakov as tributes.

Phylacteries and reality wrinkles would just complicate the game pace for me and so I don't use them. I can't comment on the canonical rules, but if you're running your own game and wondering whether you can effectively do without those rules, the answer is "yes". Or at least it was for me.

[alhoon]

As far as my own game is considered, the answer is "whatever suits me" . If I need a half-celestial/half-fiend with a RW, I won't hesitate to use it. The same if I don't want it.
I'm speaking academically here.

[Gonzoron of the FoS]

by the 3e RAW, half-fiends are native outsiders. They don't get the Evil descriptor, and as "Azalin" told us many times, only outsiders with the Good or the Evil descriptor and without the Mists descriptor (and without maximum corruption points) get a Reality Wrinkle. So, no, unless you want to bend the rules for your own purposes, they don't typically get them.

[Mortavius]

Hard to say.

Does the human half of the being override the outsider half and remove the wrinkle or not, is the real question?

My first inclination is to say yes, it does. But that flies in the face of some technical rulings. A 20th level Monk can get a reality wrinkle, and they don't even have to have any natural Outsider blood. So we have a precedent that a natural creature can gain a wrinkle. This implies that the "human half" of the being in question could not override a wrinkle.

But I agree with what was said before; if this is a PC we're talking about, I would probably just argue that there is no wrinkle. Giving a PC a wrinkle completely negates the threat of domain border closings, even if you never actually use them in your game.

[Gonzoron of the FoS]

My first inclination is to say yes, it does. But that flies in the face of some technical rulings. A 20th level Monk can get a reality wrinkle, and they don't even have to have any natural Outsider blood. So we have a precedent that a natural creature can gain a wrinkle. This implies that the "human half" of the being in question could not override a wrinkle.

That's because the Monk gains the descriptors of his non-neutral alignments. See RLDMG pg 106 for a thorough elaboration of the RW and phylactery rules.

You can make up whatever fluff makes you happy, but rules-wise, it's all about the descriptors.

[Mortavius]

So if I understand you Gonzoron, it's not about being an Outsider at all then? It's simply whether or not they have the Good or Evil descriptor?

[Gonzoron of the FoS]

So if I understand you Gonzoron, it's not about being an Outsider at all then? It's simply whether or not they have the Good or Evil descriptor?

Sorry, I guess I was too flippant. It's "all about the Descriptors" AND the outsider type.

If (type contains outsider) AND (descriptors contains (Good OR Evil)) AND NOT (descriptors contains Mists) then
- Add reality wrinkle.
end if

[alhoon]

half fiends/celestials from outside of Ravenloft get the descriptor IIRC, along with a Reality wrinkle of 1000'/HD.

Obviously, I don't play with so large RWrinkles. I go with 200'/CR. Yes, CR. It signifies power of the outsider way more than HD does and IMO, the power of the outsider shows the size of the RW.
Outside of Ravenloft, I use smaller RWrinkles usually. I.e. the angels that guard the cathedral have RWrinkles that cover the Cathedral and its gardens only etc.

[Jimsolo]

Basing wrinkles on CR rather than HD is a really good idea, alhoon. I hadn't thought of that.

[Gonzoron of the FoS]

half fiends/celestials from outside of Ravenloft get the descriptor IIRC, along with a Reality wrinkle of 1000'/HD.

Where did you see that? If so, I missed it in my quick look through the books.

[Mortavius]

So if I understand you Gonzoron, it's not about being an Outsider at all then? It's simply whether or not they have the Good or Evil descriptor?

Sorry, I guess I was too flippant. It's "all about the Descriptors" AND the outsider type.

If (type contains outsider) AND (descriptors contains (Good OR Evil)) AND NOT (descriptors contains Mists) then
- Add reality wrinkle.
end if

Love the computer-speak, Gonzoron!

[Nyarlathotep]

half fiends/celestials from outside of Ravenloft get the descriptor IIRC, along with a Reality wrinkle of 1000'/HD.

Where did you see that? If so, I missed it in my quick look through the books.

It would make sense though. A Half Celestial/Fiend from outside Ravenloft would be native to the Prime Material and not Ravenloft/ethereal. So, they should run like any other non-native outsider. And to say that the domain inplants them with that descriptor isn't much more of a change than the way Paladins work in demiplane.

[Ryan Naylor]

Gonzoron is right.

If you're an outsider with the Good or Evil descriptor, you get a reality wrinkle.

Anything else does not.

The half-fiend and half-celestial templates don't give you the Good/Evil descriptor. They give you the native descriptor, but not Good or Evil. So it doesn't matter what plane they're native to - the important factor is the lack of the relevant alignment descriptor.

A high level monk becomes an outsider with the Good or Evil descriptor.


Alhoon is misremembering I think, because I have never seen anything like that.

[alhoon]

Do I misremember? I don't think so but it's not that I'll go look anyway.

So, half-fiends and half-celestials don't get the good/evil descriptor eh?

Well, that simply won't do.

I want some of my half-outsiders to have human aspects etc, but I want others (especially half-celestials) to be embodiments of goodness and purity (or evil for half-fiends) almost as much as their celestial parents.
So, I'll add the descriptor in a case-by-case basis. I understand that's not very "solid" rules-wise that some half-outsiders get a descriptor others don't, and some of those that get the descriptor get a RW and others don't. Perhaps for continuity I would have half-celestials that are actually children of half-celestials and mortals not have an alignment descriptor.

I'll probably give Aasimars and grand-grand-children of half-celestials a more "darklord annoying" Paladin sphere.