The War in the Core

[ewancummins]

If you want to go by it, we might look at the Lawgivers/Baneities for some kind of guide. Ffrom the Day of Penance (New Year's Day, the first day of the Grand Conjunction and when the Baneite clerics lost spellcasting power) to the Celebration of the Reemeergence (first full moon in August, when the Baneite clerics got their spells back.) So we might take this as a period of 7 months?

Seven months is more than sufficient time for Drakov to act, if he realizes what is going on soon enough. He surely has invasion plans all drawn up for all his neighbors. His forces seem to be a pretty good state of readiness. And the distances to cover are nothing much.
I'm not talking about overrunning the whole Core, just invading and occupying a couple of the smaller domains on his borders.

[thekristhomas]

If you want to go by it, we might look at the Lawgivers/Baneities for some kind of guide. Ffrom the Day of Penance (New Year's Day, the first day of the Grand Conjunction and when the Baneite clerics lost spellcasting power) to the Celebration of the Reemeergence (first full moon in August, when the Baneite clerics got their spells back.) So we might take this as a period of 7 months?

that seems like a reasonable interpretation, the period without spells being the period where Bane was granting spells and not the DPs, and seeing as Bane was dead he couldn't grant them.

Brings up a point, what about the other "false" gods, did their followers experience similar loss of power? I can't recall similar being mentioned for Ezra, or Hala, does this suggest that they may actually exist?

Priests of the Morninglord, did they experience any crisis of faith when exposed to Lathander?

[jamesfirecat]

Seven months is more than sufficient time for Drakov to act, if he realizes what is going on soon enough. He surely has invasion plans all drawn up for all his neighbors. His forces seem to be a pretty good state of readiness. And the distances to cover are nothing much.
I'm not talking about overrunning the whole Core, just invading and occupying a couple of the smaller domains on his borders.

I'll admit you're right, though I still fall back on "none of the other times Darkov invaded was he defeated by border closures" argument.

Unless the darklords also lost a lot of their Ravenloft based powers (Jaqueline being able to control all the rats in Richemulot but not her general powers as a wererat as an example, Dominic still being a skilled manipulator, but not able to create/control obedients who don't even get a will save to resist his commands) for the duration of the Grand Conjunction.

Which now that I think about it isn't an impossible thing to have happened. Since both Strahd and Azalin were outside their domains we don't see if they kept their domain related powers or not. If Azalin was still able to automatically control every undead in Darkon instead of just being an incredibly powerful lich as another example...

Did a lot of Darklord powers go on the fritz during the GC/is there anything to suggest that they didn't?

[ewancummins]

Seven months is more than sufficient time for Drakov to act, if he realizes what is going on soon enough. He surely has invasion plans all drawn up for all his neighbors. His forces seem to be a pretty good state of readiness. And the distances to cover are nothing much.
I'm not talking about overrunning the whole Core, just invading and occupying a couple of the smaller domains on his borders.

I'll admit you're right, though I still fall back on "none of the other times Darkov invaded was he defeated by border closures" argument.

Unless the darklords also lost a lot of their Ravenloft based powers (Jaqueline being able to control all the rats in Richemulot but not her general powers as a wererat as an example, Dominic still being a skilled manipulator, but not able to create/control obedients who don't even get a will save to resist his commands) for the duration of the Grand Conjunction.

Which now that I think about it isn't an impossible thing to have happened. Since both Strahd and Azalin were outside their domains we don't see if they kept their domain related powers or not. If Azalin was still able to automatically control every undead in Darkon instead of just being an incredibly powerful lich as another example...

Did a lot of Darklord powers go on the fritz during the GC/is there anything to suggest that they didn't?

Do the magical bracers the Talons wear (in some versions of canon, anyway) prevent Dominic's mind control from affecting them?

But, yeah, I'd go with some darklord powers being impeded during the GC. Not all. Presumably the stuff related to being a "creature of Ravenloft" might remain.

[ewancummins]

Also, how do we know Drakov wasn't defeated by border closures?

The accounts of some of the failed campaigns sound a lot like border closures were involved, at least to me. Hordes of rats, sudden mass poisonings, scads of undead at the border...

Do people in Ravenloft generally understand what a ''border closure'' is? Or do they interpret events in other ways?

''Ivan Dislisnya says he poisoned the invaders. I hear from my cousin that he showed up as they were all dying, so it must be true."

''The Falkovnians' supplies--and some of the cart drivers and horses-- were gobbled by an unholy horde of rats. Yeah, that was near where they crossed into our country."

[Joël of the FoS]

Oh, by Ezra, do I love this thread

Please make an article of it at the end!

Joël

[jamesfirecat]

Also, how do we know Drakov wasn't defeated by border closures?

The accounts of some of the failed campaigns sound a lot like border closures were involved, at least to me. Hordes of rats, sudden mass poisonings, scads of undead at the border...

Do people in Ravenloft generally understand what a ''border closure'' is? Or do they interpret events in other ways?

''Ivan Dislisnya says he poisoned the invaders. I hear from my cousin that he showed up as they were all dying, so it must be true."

''The Falkovnians' supplies--and some of the cart drivers and horses-- were gobbled by an unholy horde of rats. Yeah, that was near where they crossed into our country."

I argue he wasn't defeated by border closure because the way that he is described as being defeated has nothing to do with border closure. At least if you look at the Second Gazeteer from Book 3.

I disagree, there's nothing I can find in any of the books that talks about invasions failing due to border closures, and a lot that talks about them failing due to reasons that have nothing to do with border closures.

It's the natural state of Darkon that everyone who dies there can become an undead, you are naturally going to go run into a huge mob of undead if you try to invade, it had nothing to do with Azalin closing the border.

The Invasion of Borca involved people dropping dead of poison as they tried to move INTO the nation, which is the exact opposite of how its border closing works.

The invasion of Richemulot is completely undefined in how he was turned back so leave that one blank.

He was turned back in G'Henna by a general lack of food, the bad terrain and mongrel men, not a wall of skulls.

Dorvinia's border closure worked in the exact same way as Borca's, so the Gold Claw Massacre could not have been the result of border closure.

The invasion of Dementlieu failed due to Falkovnia having inferior weapons, and a lot of mind control, neither of which have to do with the border closure.

The only exception I can think of is Lamordia where they mention that part of why they didn't conquer the place outright was nasty storms... so I'll give you that Falkovnia might be able to take over more of that country, but increasing the population density is just going to piss off Adam even more in the long term...


If we accept Gazetteer 2 as at all accurate, then almost all of the described failures seem to have to do with the natures of the lands he was trying to invade and the non-border closure related powers of the darklord.

[ewancummins]

That may be so.

I think some of this shows how he was turned from a caged tiger in the Black Box to a whipping boy in later materials.

But suppose the Gold Claw Massacre played out as the official Dorvinian (now Borcan) story goes. Okay, so that means Drakov is well aware that Ivan poisoned his troops.
Solution: stab Ivan to death.
Remove the master poisoner who was so good at his work that he could poison an entire army detachment with apparent ease.


Why aren't the Falkovnians assassinating rulers, sponsoring rebels, etc? Drakov is pretty smart, ruthless, and not bound by any code of chivalry.

[ewancummins]

RE inferior weapons: You know I don't agree with the anti-gunpowder stuff in regards to Drakov. I don't deny it became part of the published setting, but I think it clashes with the Black Box description of him, and in some ways just doesn't make that much sense. He should be seeking out gunsmiths and alchemists and putting them to work. A Ministry of Science making super soldiers and war machines, but no cannon? Naw.

[thekristhomas]

Oh, by Ezra, do I love this thread

Please make an article of it at the end!

Joël

Actually I was thinking of constructing a timeline with associated campaign maps and maybe adding a few adventure maps/hooks, ala Wrath of the Immortals from the Mystara setting. That might be a bit of a grand ambition, but hey...

A few of the situations have struck me as things that PCs might get involved with, the "Bridge to Nowhere" in particular seems like a fun setup, several (possibly warring) tribes of goblins occupying different sections of a partially constructed bridge.

Thanks

[Five]

RE inferior weapons: You know I don't agree with the anti-gunpowder stuff in regards to Drakov. I don't deny it became part of the published setting, but I think it clashes with the Black Box description of him, and in some ways just doesn't make that much sense. He should be seeking out gunsmiths and alchemists and putting them to work. A Ministry of Science making super soldiers and war machines, but no cannon? Naw.

He has employed alchemists, who are currently (Gaz III) working on "bizarre war machines", and he has an arms deal with Lamordia that has been in existence for "decades".

So why not connect the dots?

I agree, it doesn't make sense. It's as if outside forces (DMs and game designers) are going out of their way to urinate on Drakov/Falkovnia's potential...such a waste, that.

[ewancummins]

RE inferior weapons: You know I don't agree with the anti-gunpowder stuff in regards to Drakov. I don't deny it became part of the published setting, but I think it clashes with the Black Box description of him, and in some ways just doesn't make that much sense. He should be seeking out gunsmiths and alchemists and putting them to work. A Ministry of Science making super soldiers and war machines, but no cannon? Naw.

He has employed alchemists, who are currently (Gaz III) working on "bizarre war machines", and he has an arms deal with Lamordia that has been in existence for "decades".

So why not connect the dots?

I agree, it doesn't make sense. It's as if outside forces (DMs and game designers) are going out of their way to urinate on Drakov/Falkovnia's potential...such a waste, that.

Pretty much.

TAMBURLAINE
And ride in triumph through Persepolis!--
Is it not brave to be a king, Techelles?--
Usumcasane and Theridamas,
Is it not passing brave to be a king,
And ride in triumph through Persepolis?

[thekristhomas]

RE inferior weapons: You know I don't agree with the anti-gunpowder stuff in regards to Drakov. I don't deny it became part of the published setting, but I think it clashes with the Black Box description of him, and in some ways just doesn't make that much sense. He should be seeking out gunsmiths and alchemists and putting them to work. A Ministry of Science making super soldiers and war machines, but no cannon? Naw.

I think that while we might not agree on the way the character developed, we have to generally stick to the canon representation, which I think we've proved has quite some flexibility. I can't help but agree that Drakov changed from being an analogue of the historical Vlad Tepes to a somewhat heavy handed Hitler clone, but that's how he aged, badly

I think whether he has been defeated by border closures or by the action of the darklord, it boils down to his blindness to the truth of the demiplane.

To link this back to the main discussion, I think that this is Malochio's success, explaining the situation to Drakov in a way that he both believes and understands. If Mal told Vlad that Vlad couldn't leave Falkovnia because of the link that Vlad shares with the land as Darklord, Vlad would laugh at him as a fool. So Mal has given Vlad an explanation of things that not only covers Vlad's inability to leave but also explains to him why Mal is the guy to fix it. I'm assuming Mal has blamed the gypsies and compared Vlad's "curse" to the actual curse laid upon Mal by Eva, which this thread assumes Mal has somehow broken.

[jamesfirecat]

He has employed alchemists, who are currently (Gaz III) working on "bizarre war machines", and he has an arms deal with Lamordia that has been in existence for "decades".

So why not connect the dots?

I agree, it doesn't make sense. It's as if outside forces (DMs and game designers) are going out of their way to urinate on Drakov/Falkovnia's potential...such a waste, that.

This one has already been established, Drakov knows about firearms/has access to them. He just hates firearms/refuses to let his soldiers use them, because firearms represent/open the door to the citizen soldier who only can only do a few hours of training every weekend being just as effective a fighting force as the mercenary who has built his entire life around battle and being in war.

Drakov hates firearms, because they rob the "glory" from battle and take war in a direction he is not comfortable with/does not want to admit to.

It is a self imposed limit that he is imposing upon himself because he wants to try and prove people wrong by winning glory in battle, no matter how the odds may seem to be against him.

[jamesfirecat]

Actually I was thinking of constructing a timeline with associated campaign maps and maybe adding a few adventure maps/hooks, ala Wrath of the Immortals from the Mystara setting. That might be a bit of a grand ambition, but hey...

A few of the situations have struck me as things that PCs might get involved with, the "Bridge to Nowhere" in particular seems like a fun setup, several (possibly warring) tribes of goblins occupying different sections of a partially constructed bridge.

Thanks

I could do my pathetic best to try and come up with a rough adventure outline for some situations that taken in place in Richemulot.

By the way, do you think Jacques Renier should end up some marrying some important/pretty/famous/combination of the above three Falkovnian woman as part of the process of cementing Greater Richemulot as a kinder gentler sort of nation/general realpolitik?