Thoughts on...Dementlieu

[Strahdsbuddy]

Hated the false history too. Have you ever looked at the Core Genesis projects in my signature? Version 2 attempts to resolve this. By the way I've been updating it this year, so look forward to that...

Long story short, the land of Dementlieu (and a few others) showed up with Mordent in 579. THe domains formed later.

[Mischief]

Hated the false history too. Have you ever looked at the Core Genesis projects in my signature? Version 2 attempts to resolve this. By the way I've been updating it this year, so look forward to that...

I have not, and now I am excited. Is version 3 yours too or a fork?

[Strahdsbuddy]

Version 3 was created by an old board member here named Lord Cyclohexane, but I compiled all three. Ryan Naylor’s Illustrated History of the Core is so far head and shoulders above my own project that I stopped hawking it for a while, but his sticks to the canon formation. I’ve been updating mine all year since I learned to draw. Hoping it will be hosted here.

[ewancummins]

http://www.fraternityofshadows.com/foru ... f=1&t=9311

This old thread I started may be relevant.

[Strahdsbuddy]

http://www.fraternityofshadows.com/foru ... f=1&t=9311

This old thread I started may be relevant.

Thank you Mr. Cummins, I knew I didn’t go back far enough. I even replied in that thread! I definitely think Germaine the mesmerism is a grandfather to Germaine at the top of the bloodlines; named after a great ancestor isn’t so uncommon.

[ewancummins]

http://www.fraternityofshadows.com/foru ... f=1&t=9311

This old thread I started may be relevant.

Thank you Mr. Cummins, I knew I didn’t go back far enough. I even replied in that thread! I definitely think Germaine the mesmerism is a grandfather to Germaine at the top of the bloodlines; named after a great ancestor isn’t so uncommon.

Indeed, it's commonplace.

[DocBeard]

Don't mean to necro but a frillion words came out so here they are.

Lets talk about Dementlieu.

D’Honnare is a favorite of mine, and I feel like he’s gotten kind of a bad rep over the years as a joke of a Darklord burdened with a Domain more interesting than he is. I think Dominic is actually a fantastic example of a domain reflecting the desires and flaws of its Lord; Dominic as presented feels like a figure from a French farce, someone Moliere might get a chuckle out of. A true aristo who is specialty-evolved to exist in a society that has to dedicate a vast amount of its resources to fuel its ruling class, Dominic is an almost pathetic figure; he peaked at eight when he talked the one person who ever loved him into killing herself and despite being presented as a master manipulator and politican has to keep his society together using mind control. He’s a creepy uncle who lives in the attic and only has any power because the productive members of the family can’t bring themselves to toss him out, and like a parasite Dominic cripples his host to ensure it’s too weak to expel him.

This is the key to understanding Dominic’s curse, I feel. On the surface it certainly isn’t the banger that some Darklords work under. Love is a common theme in Darklords because passion is such a crucial part of the Gothic-Romantic movement, both as a destructive element and a key part of the human experience the Romantics saw as under threat. The curse isn’t Dominic becoming ugly, it’s that he’s unable to form any honest attachment to another human being without his true nature becoming plain to the eye. Dominic sometimes has a wife for appearances, but it’s usually a childless marriage which would immediately mark him as a failure as an aristocrat at his age. One of the great minds of his time, literally, Dominic has to surround himself with lobotomized slaves and easily manipulated fops because anyone who is actually worth his time, who he could form a fondness for and attachment to, would immediately begin to see D’Honnare as the rotten old spider he really is. Consider this possibility: Dominic’s best friend at the moment is the Living Brain, the only mind in his haven of art and science that can provide him something other than fawning obedience, barely hidden disgust, or worst of all pity for an old man. Political frustrations don’t work for D’Honnare the way they do, say, Reineir because his whole concept is a political mastermind who can also control your thoughts. The most powerful man in the jewel of the Core, and one of the most powerful minds in the demiplane eating dinner alone at some sad little kitchen table because no one can stand to actually talk to him for more than fifteen minutes? That’s a curse.

It occurs to me that Dominic D’Honnare, a misunderstood, mistrusted genius from a well off family who ends up ruining anyone he gets close to, is the closest thing Ravenloft proper has to Alister Crowley. While not the writer Crowley was, D’Honnare is the preeminent Enfant Terrible of the Core. Could be something there.

Dementileu is likewise kind of a strange fit for a domain. Like most of the political domains it seems to be designed as being a bit safer than the inner Core, both to allow a lifestyle for political intrigue to make a lick of sense and because a pretty face hiding ugliness very much fits the tone. You have all sorts of political horror in Dementileu from criminal hide and seek with the Living Brain, impoverished peasants scheming revolution, Falkovnian spies engaging in some of the deadliest espionage in the Core but what I find most interesting is how dangerous the countryside is. Dementileu is the traditional target of all sorts of sea horrors, and even the small towns suffer from imprisoned fiends, marauding abberations, and other horrors designed to push the population further and further into the cities where the signature horror of the domain waits; the crushing loneliness of realizing anyone in the crowd might be compromised. No mind is safe in Dementileu; if you aren’t an Obedient of the Darklord or his challenger, you’ve generally got some patron pushing your buttons and the sheer dread of not knowing suddenly makes the Domain’s facade of a year long party really come together. At least when you’re at a ball, or the theater, or a magic show you don’t have to talk to anyone, you don’t have to think about who’s listening and what they might do. Or make you do.

That said everything needs cleaning up so let’s have at it; as implied in my defense up there I’d push Dominic to a psychic type. It fits his bad seed origin better; his ‘trouble’ was developing Wilder powers nowhere in his part of the Core had the knowledge to identify, let alone help him adjust to. This opens up a broad vista of psychic rituals, astral journeys, mental seances and similar staples of the era to D’Honnare and Dementileu itself, finally gives Dominic a mechanical focus to build around, and gives him a goal besides maintaining the status quo: fully understanding his nature and the terrible powers potentially at his disposal. A Dominic who’s seriously advanced his powers could shake up the entire core and would make a great dread possibility or campaign hook.

I’d also broaden his curse to cover all affection, though romantic attraction is the strongest. D’Honnare as a political mastermind who has to resort to mind control makes sense if his curse activates more, and it further isolates him from real human contact. He’s the man in the back, the wheezing, ugly figure staining an otherwise regal house. We also want to give Dementlieu political goals with some teeth so the constant noble squabbling has some substance, perhaps proper ties to the Mordentish-speaking Sea of Sorrows islands? Dementileu as presented is a very defensive Domain, and giving them a few more ambitions isn’t a bad idea. I really liked the one Gazetter idea that someone is manipulating the Domain’s art scene for a more sinister purpose.

I’d also tone down the Obedients. They’re great conceptually, but they’re a little...too useful. While it infringes on Ivana a little, I’d make it harder for Dominic to create an Obedient and give the process a draining effect. Maybe they end up Star Spawn after a few years. This means he doesn’t want to make anyone too important a permanent slave, which forces him to be both subtler and work harder to control the Domain. I feel like a Dementlieu where you’re always afraid that your maid or the coachman is a puppet has a better sting than all the infamously infighting nobles Dominic gets off on pitting against each other actually having one absolute master, and a busier Dominic is a more dynamic Dominic.

Besides the Brain, I’d also reinforce that Dementlieu is a place where madness is just under the skein of civilization. Horrors from the water, ancient symbols of power built over by people who didn’t know better, and the twisted influence of the Far Realm should all be under the surface here, waiting for foolish adventures to upset the apple cart and show all of the awful worms. Dominic works to keep order in his house, but he’s also fascinated with these horrors, perhaps finding at least creatures he can relate with. So what this gives us is a Dominic with a stable power source, slightly modernized curse, ambitions beyond status quo preservation, several rivals for power, and a Dementlieu that serves as a good campaign base while being able to ‘turn up’ to a more intense adventuring experience.

[The Lesser Evil]

D’Honnare is a favorite of mine, and I feel like he’s gotten kind of a bad rep over the years as a joke of a Darklord burdened with a Domain more interesting than he is. I think Dominic is actually a fantastic example of a domain reflecting the desires and flaws of its Lord; Dominic as presented feels like a figure from a French farce, someone Moliere might get a chuckle out of. A true aristo who is specialty-evolved to exist in a society that has to dedicate a vast amount of its resources to fuel its ruling class, Dominic is an almost pathetic figure; he peaked at eight when he talked the one person who ever loved him into killing herself and despite being presented as a master manipulator and politican has to keep his society together using mind control. He’s a creepy uncle who lives in the attic and only has any power because the productive members of the family can’t bring themselves to toss him out, and like a parasite Dominic cripples his host to ensure it’s too weak to expel him.

The "peaked at 8" element would put an interesting twist on Dominic, playing that up would kind of give him a Dr. Venture vibe- middle aged has-been holding onto the reigns of power through parasitic chicanery. It would also make sense with all the Dementlieuse born d'Honaires gaining immunity to his mind control. And there seemed to be some potentially bad family dynamics within the d'Honaire family even prior to Dominic's birth.

It occurs to me that Dominic D’Honnare, a misunderstood, mistrusted genius from a well off family who ends up ruining anyone he gets close to, is the closest thing Ravenloft proper has to Alister Crowley. While not the writer Crowley was, D’Honnare is the preeminent Enfant Terrible of the Core. Could be something there.

Could you go into this a little bit more? It seems like Crowley flaunted social convention but D'Honnaire seems to subvert it for his own use.

Dementileu is likewise kind of a strange fit for a domain. Like most of the political domains it seems to be designed as being a bit safer than the inner Core, both to allow a lifestyle for political intrigue to make a lick of sense and because a pretty face hiding ugliness very much fits the tone. You have all sorts of political horror in Dementileu from criminal hide and seek with the Living Brain, impoverished peasants scheming revolution, Falkovnian spies engaging in some of the deadliest espionage in the Core but what I find most interesting is how dangerous the countryside is. Dementileu is the traditional target of all sorts of sea horrors, and even the small towns suffer from imprisoned fiends, marauding abberations, and other horrors designed to push the population further and further into the cities where the signature horror of the domain waits; the crushing loneliness of realizing anyone in the crowd might be compromised. No mind is safe in Dementileu; if you aren’t an Obedient of the Darklord or his challenger, you’ve generally got some patron pushing your buttons and the sheer dread of not knowing suddenly makes the Domain’s facade of a year long party really come together. At least when you’re at a ball, or the theater, or a magic show you don’t have to talk to anyone, you don’t have to think about who’s listening and what they might do. Or make you do.

That said everything needs cleaning up so let’s have at it; as implied in my defense up there I’d push Dominic to a psychic type. It fits his bad seed origin better; his ‘trouble’ was developing Wilder powers nowhere in his part of the Core had the knowledge to identify, let alone help him adjust to. This opens up a broad vista of psychic rituals, astral journeys, mental seances and similar staples of the era to D’Honnare and Dementileu itself, finally gives Dominic a mechanical focus to build around, and gives him a goal besides maintaining the status quo: fully understanding his nature and the terrible powers potentially at his disposal. A Dominic who’s seriously advanced his powers could shake up the entire core and would make a great dread possibility or campaign hook.

I’d also broaden his curse to cover all affection, though romantic attraction is the strongest. D’Honnare as a political mastermind who has to resort to mind control makes sense if his curse activates more, and it further isolates him from real human contact. He’s the man in the back, the wheezing, ugly figure staining an otherwise regal house. We also want to give Dementlieu political goals with some teeth so the constant noble squabbling has some substance, perhaps proper ties to the Mordentish-speaking Sea of Sorrows islands? Dementileu as presented is a very defensive Domain, and giving them a few more ambitions isn’t a bad idea. I really liked the one Gazetter idea that someone is manipulating the Domain’s art scene for a more sinister purpose.

I’d also tone down the Obedients. They’re great conceptually, but they’re a little...too useful. While it infringes on Ivana a little, I’d make it harder for Dominic to create an Obedient and give the process a draining effect. Maybe they end up Star Spawn after a few years. This means he doesn’t want to make anyone too important a permanent slave, which forces him to be both subtler and work harder to control the Domain. I feel like a Dementlieu where you’re always afraid that your maid or the coachman is a puppet has a better sting than all the infamously infighting nobles Dominic gets off on pitting against each other actually having one absolute master, and a busier Dominic is a more dynamic Dominic.

Besides the Brain, I’d also reinforce that Dementlieu is a place where madness is just under the skein of civilization. Horrors from the water, ancient symbols of power built over by people who didn’t know better, and the twisted influence of the Far Realm should all be under the surface here, waiting for foolish adventures to upset the apple cart and show all of the awful worms. Dominic works to keep order in his house, but he’s also fascinated with these horrors, perhaps finding at least creatures he can relate with. So what this gives us is a Dominic with a stable power source, slightly modernized curse, ambitions beyond status quo preservation, several rivals for power, and a Dementlieu that serves as a good campaign base while being able to ‘turn up’ to a more intense adventuring experience.

[/quote]

As an alternative to the Far Realm (or as a conduit to it), you could have the Elder Brain from bluetspur have some sort of presence, perhaps through a link with the Living Brain.

[DocBeard]

The "peaked at 8" element would put an interesting twist on Dominic, playing that up would kind of give him a Dr. Venture vibe- middle aged has-been holding onto the reigns of power through parasitic chicanery. It would also make sense with all the Dementlieuse born d'Honaires gaining immunity to his mind control. And there seemed to be some potentially bad family dynamics within the d'Honaire family even prior to Dominic's birth.

Yeah, I think that's really the interesting take. Like I said, when I think of politically frustrated Darklords, I think of Drakov, for obvious reasons, and I think of Reineir, who has always been played as someone who's ambitions are far greater than her Domain or powers. I wasn't super into the skavenesque werewrats of Gaz 3, but I loved how ambitions and unconstrained and plucky Richemulot as a setting is and how that must drive Jackie R totally, completely bonkers. But I'm getting distracted; the point is;

When I think of gothic villains I think of messed up personal lives and twisted ambitions and how they intersect and feed each other. Just about every single Darklord has some kind of screwed up personal life that often fuels their curse and also enables them to continue on; I could see d'Honaire, for example, being able to escape his aging body into a fresh new family member and having to take control of the domain all over again. Regardless having an unhappy family life because of his curse and rotten personality also echos the pleasant facade and twisted interior of his Domain. You have to think about what Dominic wants; and looking at his depictions over the years I think he wants two mutually exclusive things, order in his life and stimulation worth his time. These clashing motivations are the key to making him an engaging, dynamic villain in either a central or supporting role.

Could you go into this a little bit more? It seems like Crowley flaunted social convention but D'Honnaire seems to subvert it for his own use.

Well, so did Crowley, who only got away with what he did because he was the son of a proper gentleman and absolutely used the class system of the time to his advantage whenever possible. My mind might've been on the Great Beast because I was listening to a podcast on his life while typing this, but what I was thinking is that Dominic is a creature of vast potential and ambition who, having situated himself comfortably, would crave stimulation, and while gifted with powers and skills beyond those of his peers is still ultimately beholden to his childhood; much of Crowley's later writings were about the realization that despite his life of infamy he never quite escaped being the son of a wealthy, rigidly fundamentalist british gentleman, and approaching the world through that narrow point of view, simply inverted.

This ties back into the 'peaked at eight' thing. Dominic the wilder would, like Crowley, be starving for formal training or understanding of his gifts and when he finally finds people of wisdom and learning realizes he's already at their level. It explains why he allows arcane cabals and other dangerous elements in his domain; he's starved for company and is hoping to finally some day find someone who can teach him something. Like Crowley Dominic is rigidly controlling in his personal life; I could easily see him assigning the people close to him archetypal roles he could use to shape them more to his liking, taking a scarlet woman or similar figure and when, like always, individuals fail him he has a neat system in place to refresh the cast, as it were.

Obviously it is not a one for one reflection, but d'Honnaire could be fleshed out with elements of Crowley the man and the myth quite nicely. I also find a lot of inspiration for him and his Domain from French farce, which I wish I was more familiar with.

As an alternative to the Far Realm (or as a conduit to it), you could have the Elder Brain from bluetspur have some sort of presence, perhaps through a link with the Living Brain.

I think that fits nicely. Honestly the Elder Brain is basically an Elder Evil trapped in Ravenloft as it is, even if the concept of the Far Realm proper came an edition and a half later you can see a lot of its bones in Bluetspur. I have some thoughts about how to integrate the dappled cosmology popular in 4 and 5e into Ravenloft that I feel like might deserve its own thread when they're coherent, but my general thought is that there's nothing stopping it from being both. Ravenloft is a young world and is sometimes artificially constrained by that despite ancient ruins dotting the landscape of nearly every Domain, so let me posit this to you; 3E especially plays with the idea that this is not the first Domain of Dread, simply the Dark Powers's latest experiment. Who is to say, then, that the "false" history dotted throughout the Core is really false? It all doesn't have to be a work by the Dark Powers to mess with the Lords; it is entirely possible that previous incarnations of the Demiplane left a little something behind.

[Mistmaster]

I made Dominic a Mesmerist in Pathfinder rules.