What would you want in an official 5e Ravenloft setting?

[Five]

RE: Curse of Strahd. CoS is probably the best Wizards can do with horror without bypassing current safety guards.

Keep in mind that TSR had very, VERY strict rules on what could and could not be done in their adventure material and products. Which spring out of the Satanic Panic of the 1980s.
Hence the renaming of demons and devils. Good always had to win. And myriad other limitations. This was lamented by many writers at the time, would couldn't make villainous organizations more than paper tigers.
Almost every single Ravenloft product was published during this restrictive era.

It wasn't until WotC purchased TSR in 1997 that the restrictions were lifted, allowing demons and devils to return, bring back Orcus, and the like.

WotC's current policy allows much more creative freedom in the horrible things the adventures can describe and the events of the plots than anything in 2e.
They're not going full Shadow of the Demon Lord, but they're doing alright. And really, that type of graphic and explicit tone isn't suitable for Ravenloft. Even the hard-R of Vampire the Masquerade feels gratuitous at times and ill suited for the subtle gothic tones of the Land of the Mists.

Ironic that now that the cage door is open they choose to stay within it. Within that PG-13 rating (what I meant by saying "current safety guards"), which if those numbers are still accurate is targeting 25 percent of their customer base (if you allow the younger ones access). Now, I know that that is a very black and white view of things, that it's obvious that a helluva lot of people of all ages are happy with this direction, and I can't say I don't like this Nintendo/family-oriented approach.

But my original remarks still stands (for me) why not vehicle options to all of its base? Horror tools that by their very definition allows tables to respectfully tackle themes not found in current products. Themes that Wizards are currently trying to tackle as a business. Ravenloft could be such a vehicle. A way to bring entertainment horror to D&D and let Wizards establish lines and limits when it comes to being all-inclusive. Horror is niche though, so maybe a survey would better gauge the wants of its base before they commit to something outside the program? I get the feeling that I'm in the minority...

And yes, R-rated for R-rated sake is a mistake. The same way it's a mistake to dilute horror to get more people in theatres (anybody else sick of loud sounds replacing good scripts?). It's a waste in fact. But as an option for (respectful) direction for those wanting to table it it could be a good thing, even in Ravenloft. I don't think explicit tones aren't compatible with Ravenloft (a demiplane/setting where the worst of the worst are gathered/imprisoned, where bigotry et al. is already a mechanic (OR), all to be thwarted/overcome by the PCs), but I do think they should be used sparingly, in order to maintain its gothic roots foundation.

I feel like I'm just rewording my other post so I'll stop there. Not really fair to the other posts and to be honest I don't like the sound of my own voice so it's kinda bugging me. Haha

[Five]

How about a book of mysteries? Scenarios, new investigative items and spells, and dark magic for nefarious murder plots and for hunting monsters. And I mean hunting monsters less in the sense of combat, but more tracking down a creature that is doing its best to avoid direct combat by the clues and signs.

Even without the Ravenloft banner that would be cool. But under the banner we can have a new line of V-books, featuring an occult sleuth (who leaves the heavy hitting to their hired help!)...

Not sure if I'd like Alanik and Sedgewick though, even though they would be prime candidates. Too Holmesian. Van Richten-Van Helsing worked, but another blatant clone would just be adding another slice of cheese to the sandwich. IMO

Fits with published RL though...

[Jester of the FoS]

How about a book of mysteries? Scenarios, new investigative items and spells, and dark magic for nefarious murder plots and for hunting monsters. And I mean hunting monsters less in the sense of combat, but more tracking down a creature that is doing its best to avoid direct combat by the clues and signs.

An Alanik's Casebook in other words.

I've drafted some ideas for Detective vs. Criminal type scenarios, and a bunch of the spells, Auscult, Bellchime, Deadtack, Disguise Voice, Eclipse Script, Ghost Lantern, Hullabagloom, and Vitriolic Double I released in my previous QTR. Deadtack is getting re-released in Zytia along with a fun spell/item called Soulpin.

You mean like Candlekeep Mysteries, the newly announced book of 17 small adventures coming in March?

[Mischief]

How about a book of mysteries? Scenarios, new investigative items and spells, and dark magic for nefarious murder plots and for hunting monsters. And I mean hunting monsters less in the sense of combat, but more tracking down a creature that is doing its best to avoid direct combat by the clues and signs.

An Alanik's Casebook in other words.

I've drafted some ideas for Detective vs. Criminal type scenarios, and a bunch of the spells, Auscult, Bellchime, Deadtack, Disguise Voice, Eclipse Script, Ghost Lantern, Hullabagloom, and Vitriolic Double I released in my previous QTR. Deadtack is getting re-released in Zytia along with a fun spell/item called Soulpin.

You mean like Candlekeep Mysteries, the newly announced book of 17 small adventures coming in March?

Will that be a book of "actual mysteries", or is it mini-modules with a mystery theme? It might have what I am looking for, but the emphasis I seek is more support and advice-through-example modules for golden age detective, police procedural, spy vs. spy, or heist. Dnd5e is probably not the best dice system for running that sort of thing, but it is probably the best of the Dnd/Pathfinder complex for trying. Bounded accuracy means that even moderate difficulty tasks can remain vexing over a wide range of levels, and because exploration (crime scene investigation, breaking into places) and social rules (investigation, questioning) can be modded without interfering with the balance of combat.

[Five]

but the emphasis I seek is more support and advice-through-example modules for golden age detective, police procedural, spy vs. spy, or heist. Dnd5e is probably not the best dice system for running that sort of thing

https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/332115

The Spy Game is a 5E kickstater project that is yet to be delivered outside of this pdf, and it's modern, but there may be a few things in there that you can poach for spies, spy organisations, infiltration, gadgets, hacking etc. Obviously that depends on your actual wants, and you'll have to re-flavour, but that shouldn't be a problem for most.

[Jester of the FoS]

How about a book of mysteries? Scenarios, new investigative items and spells, and dark magic for nefarious murder plots and for hunting monsters. And I mean hunting monsters less in the sense of combat, but more tracking down a creature that is doing its best to avoid direct combat by the clues and signs.

An Alanik's Casebook in other words.

I've drafted some ideas for Detective vs. Criminal type scenarios, and a bunch of the spells, Auscult, Bellchime, Deadtack, Disguise Voice, Eclipse Script, Ghost Lantern, Hullabagloom, and Vitriolic Double I released in my previous QTR. Deadtack is getting re-released in Zytia along with a fun spell/item called Soulpin.

You mean like Candlekeep Mysteries, the newly announced book of 17 small adventures coming in March?

Will that be a book of "actual mysteries", or is it mini-modules with a mystery theme? It might have what I am looking for, but the emphasis I seek is more support and advice-through-example modules for golden age detective, police procedural, spy vs. spy, or heist. Dnd5e is probably not the best dice system for running that sort of thing, but it is probably the best of the Dnd/Pathfinder complex for trying. Bounded accuracy means that even moderate difficulty tasks can remain vexing over a wide range of levels, and because exploration (crime scene investigation, breaking into places) and social rules (investigation, questioning) can be modded without interfering with the balance of combat.

We'll find out in a few months.

The advertising copy is:
GREAT BOOKS HIDE THEIR SECRETS WELL
An anthology of seventeen mystery-themed adventures for the world’s greatest roleplaying game.

Candlekeep attracts scholars like a flame attracts moths. Historians, sages, and others who crave knowledge flock to this library fortress to peruse its vast collection of books, scribbled into which are the answers to the mysteries that bedevil them. Many of these books contain their own mysteries—each one a doorway to adventure. Dare you cross that threshold?

Candlekeep Mysteries is a collection of seventeen short, stand-alone D&D adventures designed for characters of levels 1-16. Each adventure begins with the discovery of a book, and each book is the key to a door behind which danger and glory await. These adventures can be run as one-shot games, plugged into an existing Forgotten Realms campaign, or adapted for other campaign settings.

This book also includes a poster map of the library fortress and detailed descriptions of Candlekeep and its inhabitants.


https://dnd.wizards.com/products/candlekeep-mysteries

[ewancummins]

Ironic that now that the cage door is open they choose to stay within it.

The 'cage' today is the same as before; corporate boardroom concerns about the possible effects on sales of a moral panic going on in the larger society. Hasbro will play it safe, I think.

[ewancummins]

PG-13 is a great place to be if the goal is to appeal to young adults and their parents. I suspect only a very small number of kids are actually playing the game, and it's much more college age and up, but I could be wrong. It's just a guess.

WotC actually released a pretty cool infographic last year, based on market research they conducted and hired firms to do.

12% of players are 8-12
13% are 13-17
15% are 18-24
(Which means 40% of current players are <24/ and GenZ/ Zoomers)
15% are 25-29
19% are 20-34
15% are 35-39
and only 11% are 40+

And 39% of players are female.

D&D has made HUGE inroads with younger players in the last half-decade, who ARE happy to watch people play D&D and enter the hobby that way. Critical Role and the like have become a massive recruitment tool.

That means 75% are college age and up. A strong majority. But I would have guessed more like 85% adults, and with twice as many high schoolers as younger kids.

This is a hobby game, not an army, cult, or political party. Talking of 'massive recruitment' in this particular context leaves a bad taste in my mouth. I also dislike the boardroom-approved use of ' D&D community' and I'm not much concerned with 'the industry' either.
But I get it; the company wants to make money. Nothing wrong with that.



EDIT

Back on something closer to to the topic, I'm glad that Jester brought up Candlekeep Mysteries. That one looks pretty cool.

Mysteries can be hard to do in D&D, because of divination magic. Ravenloft restricts a number of the problematic (for mysteries) divination spells and powers, forcing PCs to do more old-fashioned detective work. Any 5E adaptation of the setting should do the same.

[Mischief]

@Jester, the description makes it sound more suitable for Sigil. Candlekeep did appear briefly the Avernus module, which I am 99% sure without checking is the also the module with Jander Sunstar stuck up in a tree. At that stage of the read through I was still in wtf mode over those giant wasps that made nests out of angel corpses and that the baby level PCs might accidentally tick off and get in combat with the nearby Death Knight. (Edit: checked, that combat was elsewhere. But yeesh, the wasps were 50% worse than I remembered!)

Looking at the Candlekeep cover, do you think there is any chance the lady with the magnifying glass is a Vistani? She could just be a chick with a hood and tattoo but.... Loremaster Vistani? Vistani to cart the heroes to where the books say? I know that supposedly all the products with Vistani have been released, but I can hold out hope, right?

[Five]

Ironic that now that the cage door is open they choose to stay within it.

The 'cage' today is the same as before; corporate boardroom concerns about the possible effects on sales of a moral panic going on in the larger society. Hasbro will play it safe, I think.

Yeah, and I hope that logic and cooler heads will again prevail and realise that to attack things (such as fantasy games, video games, music, etc) that actually encourage and promote personal imagination and creativity is more than a bit foolish. That amateur monster hunters who jump at their own shadows are counter-productive to the growth of individualism. At least, until the next hunters come of age...

I remember having to watch a video in school that tried to push the idea of Dungeons and Dragons (along with Masters of the Universe of all things) being Satanic. This was maybe/almost ten years after the hype. Needless to say I very openly resisted the wash and the nun in charge was quick to brand me and a few others that equally mocked the notion. Regardless of the personal burn I was quite proud of that fight. Heh

Anyway, that's really neither here nor there, just a blast from the past that I'd thought I share...

Don't mind me, all. Carry on.

[Jester of the FoS]

That means 75% are college age and up. A strong majority. But I would have guessed more like 85% adults, and with twice as many high schoolers as younger kids.

Sure, but a company like WotC wants to make products that could appeal to everyone and not just 85%.
There's a reason WotC only did a couple "mature audiences" books in 3e and then never again. (And even those were tame compared to White Wolf's fare.)
D&D has always been a very PG to PG-13 game.

This is a hobby game, not an army, cult, or political party. Talking of 'massive recruitment' in this particular context leaves a bad taste in my mouth.

Possibly bad wording, but "advertising tool" seems to minimize what Critical Role and the like does to being just an ad rather than people having fun.

I also dislike the boardroom-approved use of ' D&D community' and I'm not much concerned with 'the industry' either.
But I get it; the company wants to make money. Nothing wrong with that.

I like the term "D&D Community" because it feels like we're all in the same neighbourhood. It's not "D&D Family" but close. We're all connected by the hobby. And often support each other, offering gaming advice and suggestions as well as tools & tricks.

And it's less that I want the company to make money so much as I want the game to grow.
Back in 2011 D&D was dead. Two-thirds of its fans had left that game. And while a third went to Pathfinder, the rest just stopped buying. And without its dominant market leader, the whole market shrank. D&D became a greying hobby that would slowly vanish as its current players died, taking the entire hobby with it.
The resounding and staggering success of 5e means that D&D is alive again and better than ever. And that the entire hobby is getting a boost.

Ironic that now that the cage door is open they choose to stay within it.

The 'cage' today is the same as before; corporate boardroom concerns about the possible effects on sales of a moral panic going on in the larger society. Hasbro will play it safe, I think.

Keep in mind WotC is a separate company that is just owned by Hasbro. WotC manages itself on a day-to-day basis and Hasbro isn't micromanaging, as it has its own company to run.
If it wanted to control D&D firmly, they'd move everything in-house and let go of the expensive superfluous management.

I think the era of outside moral panic in D&D is long gone. Where figures who are not part of the hobby object to the game is very much over, and their outrage has long since moved to video games. Which will remain the objects of outrage for some time. That and Lord of the Rings and Harry Potter have just made fantasy wholly acceptable.

[Jester of the FoS]

@Jester, the description makes it sound more suitable for Sigil. Candlekeep did appear briefly the Avernus module, which I am 99% sure without checking is the also the module with Jander Sunstar stuck up in a tree.

I think the "key to a door" text is more metaphorical and not literal.

Candlekeep in this instance is just the framing device. The "books" are just the default adventure hook. You find a book and go on an adventure. But I imagine you could just as easily invent your own hook and use the adventures without Candlekeep.

Besides which, WotC is always going to default to setting modules in the Realms. And Candlekeep is a big library and a known location, being the starting point of the original Baldur's Gate video game.

Looking at the Candlekeep cover, do you think there is any chance the lady with the magnifying glass is a Vistani? She could just be a chick with a hood and tattoo but.... Loremaster Vistani? Vistani to cart the heroes to where the books say? I know that supposedly all the products with Vistani have been released, but I can hold out hope, right?

I think it's pretty safe to say the "Vistani" product was Tasha's Cauldron of Everything and has already been released, and we shouldn't expect more.

[Gonzoron of the FoS]

That Candlekeep book does sound interesting. If I didn't have such a backlog of stuff on my shelf to read, I might pick it up. Sounds like my kind of product and surely some would be adaptable to RL.

[Gonzoron of the FoS]

That means 75% are college age and up. A strong majority. But I would have guessed more like 85% adults, and with twice as many high schoolers as younger kids.

Sure, but a company like WotC wants to make products that could appeal to everyone and not just 85%.

And remember that even if 75% of players are older, that doesn't mean that 75% of tables have no one younger. Yes, people tend to play within their peer group, but at game stores, etc, there's not always the luxury to pick and choose. Almost by definition, you'll have a larger percentage of groups with a younger person in it than the percentage of older players. And not every older player wants "mature" stuff in the game they play to escape.

[ewancummins]

The moral panic today is not about Satanism or the occult but about "racism" and " sexism" in games. Some of that comes from actual gamers, and a lot of it from self-appointed moral censors in media, schools, and political groups. Tabletop RPGs are by their nature impossible to censor and control in the same ways as video games, movies, and books. The creative freedom of players and referees trumps corporate policy and political activism. Thank goodness! And only D&D is high profile enough to attract a large number of horrible little entryists.