Ravenloft is back in 5e?

[onmyoji]

That Heather House is full of monsters while the Weathermay family lives there and a few meters/yards away Azalin waits to be transpositioned... what a mess. This adventure needs a serious reboot.

It's on my list for the second Ravenloft campaign I'm doing. I have some good ideas, but to be honest, I'm not particularly far in working on it since it's not coming down the line for awhile.

— onmyoji

[Jester of the FoS]

But since Price's approach to the topic seems to be "hey, here's Vicodin Drakov, lesbo-queen of the undead - and if you don't like what I hereby declare as the pinnacle of creative game design, I'm gonna call you nasty things"... Well. What do you guys think is gonna happen next?

I think you're conflating a few things here. We know there's a female Drakov. We know there are LGBTQ characters. We know Price worked on it, and that she seems to be praising the LGBTQ representation. We don't know that the new Drakov is one of the LGBTQ characters. We don't even know what parts of the book Price worked on. We don't know the quality of the work. We still don't even know if Vladesca Drakov is meant to be a gender-flipped Vlad or a relative of Vlad. We have precious little crumbs to go on at this point, so before we pull out the tar and feathers, let's see what the finished product is like.

I think the treatment of Falkovnia really does stand out as a problematic aspect.

Almost certainly, it's going to be presented than the new darklord is a gender flipped Vlad. And the founder of the land. Because they'll want this book to match and synch with Curse of Strahd, so both will be 735 BC and presented as a fresh start.
Now, this isn't a terrible thing. There does need to be more female representation among darklords, and ones whose damnation and/or curse isn't tied to romance/ love/ children.
BUT
Then they also change the land from the twisted military dictatorship and example of human evil. And instead make it "zombie apocalypse land." Okay... fine. That makes sense as long as you have the Core and you need to have a Falkovnia for that part of the map.
BUT x2
There isn't a Core anymore. There's no reason this has to be a Falkovnia. Since they were replacing the darklord and changing the tone and making it an island unconnected to the history and established lore... why not just make a new domain from scratch?

Ditto Valachan. And possibly others...

[Gonzoron of the FoS]

She also misinterpreted some of my tweets about Mentzer and assumed I was defending him, flamed my viciously, which also led her followers to harass and attack me for several days, driving me off Twitter and into a very, very deep depression spiral where I withdrew from gaming entirely for several months.
She eventually realized her mistake and delated some of her more... colourful descriptions of me but never issued any retractions or apologies.

I do not particularly like her...

Jeez, sorry to hear that Jester. Was not aware. Hope you're in a better mindspace now.

[tomokaicho]

She also misinterpreted some of my tweets about Mentzer and assumed I was defending him, flamed my viciously, which also led her followers to harass and attack me for several days, driving me off Twitter and into a very, very deep depression spiral where I withdrew from gaming entirely for several months.

Many such cases.

She eventually realized her mistake and delated some of her more... colourful descriptions of me but never issued any retractions or apologies.

Realized she was wrong, or realized that now that the job was done it was time to remove the evidence? All kinds of sociopaths and borderline personality types are vanguarding sensitive matters such as race, identity and gender, and using it as a weapon to fulfil their own sick needs.

[Jester of the FoS]

She also misinterpreted some of my tweets about Mentzer and assumed I was defending him, flamed my viciously, which also led her followers to harass and attack me for several days, driving me off Twitter and into a very, very deep depression spiral where I withdrew from gaming entirely for several months.
She eventually realized her mistake and delated some of her more... colourful descriptions of me but never issued any retractions or apologies.

I do not particularly like her...

Jeez, sorry to hear that Jester. Was not aware. Hope you're in a better mindspace now.

It was a few years ago. So largely over it. But it wrecked me for a long time.
Then she was fired by ArenaNet and everyone online was tripping over themselves to defend her for basically doing the same BS she did to me.

She also misinterpreted some of my tweets about Mentzer and assumed I was defending him, flamed my viciously, which also led her followers to harass and attack me for several days, driving me off Twitter and into a very, very deep depression spiral where I withdrew from gaming entirely for several months.

Many such cases.

She's left a lot of hurt feelings and upset people in her wake.

She eventually realized her mistake and delated some of her more... colourful descriptions of me but never issued any retractions or apologies.

Realized she was wrong, or realized that now that the job was done it was time to remove the evidence? All kinds of sociopaths and borderline personality types are vanguarding sensitive matters such as race, identity and gender, and using it as a weapon to fulfil their own sick needs.

I choose to believe the former. And that she's not a sociopath, just someone overly focused on bringing down people she thinks are bad.

[Mangrum]

And that's something that stuck with me. I never bought Beast: The Primordial because of its terrible reviews, I've not bought Tasha's because of the mixed reviews. I've become more discerning when it comes to buying something and wait to see how it's received. It's why I'm not buying the new Werewolf: The Apocalypse game, as it's a boring buggy mess.

If this book comes out and it reviews badly, but you buy it because it's more Ravenloft, you aren't helping the setting, you're enabling terrible writers.

As an aside, rereading that thread from a 14 year gap, now it just comes off as incredibly cathartic for everyone involved. It was like a massive boil that needed to be lanced.

I absolutely do not support your opinions in this discussion.

[Five]

I have to remind you that besides Hazlik there is also another gay character, Baron Metus. In Van Richten's guide to Vampires, Rudolph "horrified" (because of Erasmus's age?) makes the assumption that Erasmus was turned into a vampire by grooming, a turning procedure where a vampire's lover is turned into a free-willed vampire.

I think it's safe to say that Dr. Van Richten is homophobic.

You know, talking about revisions, I think this could be a pretty cool flaw to tack on to Van Richten. Throw some dirt on his image a little, but through backstory, so that you then elevate his heroics.

He hated his son for being gay. They have an exceptionally nasty argument one night (more so than all the others; this one violent) and Erasmus runs away to be with his much older "lover", a Vistani. Van Richten fumes, rages, and essentially disowns the kid, until his wife Ingrid, ever the rock (and Van Richten's rage's foil), talks him in to making peace with his son...

His hatred for the Vistani, fuelled by his homophobia and set ablaze when he finds out that they sold his son to Baron Metus, climaxes in an absolutely brutal moment sort of like Hugh Jackman's character in the movie The Prisoner if it were mixed with Taxi Driver's "bust-in" scene, which in turn has him marked by the Dark Powers.

The loss of Erasmus opens Van Richten's eyes to the darkness within, and in a last touching moment of pure love and understanding Van Richten swears to conquer his demons, and stand square to those like the baron that so cruelly prey on others.

Ingrid is later found dead and Van Richten, tormented by both his pain and his rage, begins his road to redemption by becoming the scarecrow of humanity to the world's hidden horrors.

He owes that to Erasmus.

Or something like that.

[Mephisto of the FoS]

Interesting view but I believe it goes against Rudolph's alignment. Hugh Jackman's character in Prisoner (I've seen it once and don't want to see it again) would be the least Chaotic Good, but probably Chaotic Neutral with an alignment change (after many power checks) to Chaotic Evil because of him torturing a perceived abductor of his daughter. Van Richten is a deeply loving self sacrificing person and if he was homophobic it would be because of his upbringing but after travelling he would be open minded to accept other peoples sexuality, for instance he is a friend to Alanik Ray another speculated homosexual famous NPC. I think from Van Richten's background it is almost stated that he lived in harmony with his family until his son was abducted.

[tomokaicho]

Van Richten is a deeply loving self sacrificing person and if he was homophobic it would be because of his upbringing but after travelling he would be open minded to accept other peoples sexuality, for instance he is a friend to Alanik Ray another speculated homosexual famous NPC. I think from Van Richten's background it is almost stated that he lived in harmony with his family until his son was abducted.

I think we are on shaky ground when trying to assign an alignment tendency to 'homophobic' people. For one, it's a label that is almost always assigned exogenously rather than it being the intrinsic modality of the person thus labeled.

When Baron Metus turned Van Richten's son into his vampire groom, he did so not because he was a vampire, but because he was a homosexual pedarist. Van Richten expresses horror at this and says that he hopes that Metus goes to the Nine Hells. Yeah, Van Richten is probably homophobic, but there is context. If some 'gentleman caller' called on the Van Richten residence to request permission to court Van Richten's hypothetical other son, you can hardly expect Van Richten to be pleased. Back in the real world, and I tread carefully here, Palestinians are frequently accused of being 'antisemitic' and I guess they are but there is context there that is usually overlooked.

I don't know if Alanik Ray is on the down-low or not but even if he was Van Richten being homophobic would not prevent them from working together unless Alanik Ray threw it in Van Richten's face. We look back on history and see some sort of linear line of progress towards tolerance and away from intolerance. But the reality of the matter is that homosexuality was tolerated even when acts of homosexuality was illegal as long as it was kept low-key.

Back to Van Richten's hypothetical other teenage son. Van Richten may be a homophobe for telling the gay version of the gentleman caller to beat it, but it doesn't reflect on his Lawful Good alignment at all. Call him Lawful-Good-Homophobic if you must.

[lowfyr]

I always read his comments in the Guide to Vampires not as homophobic, but as him realising after researching about Vampires, that what happened could not have been just the things as he thought but something even more sinister.

And I highly doubt that he would not be as horrified, if it was about a daughter.

[Drinnik Shoehorn]

And that's something that stuck with me. I never bought Beast: The Primordial because of its terrible reviews, I've not bought Tasha's because of the mixed reviews. I've become more discerning when it comes to buying something and wait to see how it's received. It's why I'm not buying the new Werewolf: The Apocalypse game, as it's a boring buggy mess.

If this book comes out and it reviews badly, but you buy it because it's more Ravenloft, you aren't helping the setting, you're enabling terrible writers.

As an aside, rereading that thread from a 14 year gap, now it just comes off as incredibly cathartic for everyone involved. It was like a massive boil that needed to be lanced.

I absolutely do not support your opinions in this discussion.

I’m not asking you to, and I understand if you don’t agree.

I just think your comment was very pertinent at the time and is something all fans of all intellectual properties should consider before buying something because it is attached to an IP they enjoy.

[Le Noir Faineant]

She also misinterpreted some of my tweets about Mentzer and assumed I was defending him, flamed my viciously, which also led her followers to harass and attack me for several days, driving me off Twitter and into a very, very deep depression spiral where I withdrew from gaming entirely for several months.
She eventually realized her mistake and delated some of her more... colourful descriptions of me but never issued any retractions or apologies.

I do not particularly like her...

Sorry to hear that, and, yeah, of course, this is what Price is known for doing. Not a judgment of her motivations, or of the causes she says she's supporting through them - just a description of her actions. I'd rather not deal with her, and I would hope that WotC, for all their talk of championing social causes, would hire somebody whose social curriculum could not be summed up with the word "bully".

Now, as to her impact on Ravenloft, and/or the community, on the long run - well, seems she'll have to make quite the effort, won't she? Unless she manages to deliver really solid material, fan verdict will be considerably harsher than it would be concerning the work of someone else. And while she might be able to deal with this on the short term, on the long term, her reputation will go to the gutter if she doesn't deliver, yet keeps behaving in interpersonal communication like a freaking sociopath. - In all coldness, it's really that easy. I take no glory in saying this.

[Mephisto of the FoS]

That Heather House is full of monsters while the Weathermay family lives there and a few meters/yards away Azalin waits to be transpositioned... what a mess. This adventure needs a serious reboot.

It's on my list for the second Ravenloft campaign I'm doing. I have some good ideas, but to be honest, I'm not particularly far in working on it since it's not coming down the line for awhile.

— onmyoji

Imagine if you didn't have to, meaning if WotC actually did a reboot. It could be focused on the Apparatus, having information as an accessory or even adventures similar to Candlekeep Mysteries.

"The Apparatus a collection of seventeen short, stand-alone D&D adventures designed for characters of levels 1-16."

It could begin in Prime Material Mordent similar to House on Gryphon Hill, having also some adventures involving Azalin's and Strahd's experiments on the Demiplanes planar fabric perhaps. Since they don't remember anything about that time so it would be virgin territory (that doesn't mean that there should be more displacer beast's though).

Then it could be used as a backstory adventure of how Vikta Mordenheim became darklord, using the apparatus to Adam and (the ants)... sorry bad joke I meant Mordenheim.

It could also be used in an adventure with Malken, maybe The Mudman of Bergovitsa who is an alchemist finds the diary of the original Alchemist and tries to save his mentor (or whatever Sir T. is to him)

There could be an adventure about the Rod of Houtras and the Brotherhood of Contemplative Power in Barovia.

Then there could be another adventure about the Rod of Rastinon maybe including the Thaani and the Ildi'Thaan.

Naturally a variation of the adventure Thought's of Darkness and the creation of Vampire Illithids (mentioned in reviews on VRGtR) would be really welcomed as this adventure was a mess too, without any horror except the all to powerful D&D monsters appearing (especially the drow, I believe there shouldn't be drow elves there).

Adventures about specific characters as Bonespur, Lyssa Von Zarovich, Rasputin Khrinitov and the Living Brain (his fairytale version at least ).

Rules for Psionics and psionic "magical items"in Ravenloft like Bonespur's psionic shapeshifting knife or his spellturning ring leading to an introduction to Loie Hunn could also be welcomed.

This could be a product introducing DM's and players alike into a more Lovecraftian type of horror as it was planned to be done in the last Gazetteer.

If anyone from the Ravenloft designer's or WotC development team reads this, I hope it was enough to brainstorm you into creating a product like that.

[Five]

Interesting view but I believe it goes against Rudolph's alignment. Hugh Jackman's character in Prisoner (I've seen it once and don't want to see it again) would be the least Chaotic Good, but probably Chaotic Neutral with an alignment change (after many power checks) to Chaotic Evil because of him torturing a perceived abductor of his daughter. Van Richten is a deeply loving self sacrificing person and if he was homophobic it would be because of his upbringing but after travelling he would be open minded to accept other peoples sexuality, for instance he is a friend to Alanik Ray another speculated homosexual famous NPC. I think from Van Richten's background it is almost stated that he lived in harmony with his family until his son was abducted.

I'd start Van Richten off as Neutral (with situational good and evil) and then during his travels, his battles, his writings and teachings he ends up at Lawful Good. Average man (with some serious demons/flaws) to Rudolph Van Richten.

It's almost the opposite of George Weathermay, who is spiraling more and more downwards as he takes his fight to the Darkness. No doubt Van Richten is aware of this, and sees a bit of his younger self in George, and is trying to connect and "get through", but the monsters keep coming and other people need saving, people who want to be saved. This is Van Richten's twilight test. A healer who can't heal those closest to his heart. And the whispers of doubt, guilt at having led George to such a place, are straight-up torturing him...

The Dark Powers smirk.

As an added bonus, and to bring more dynamic to several of Ravenloft's classic monster hunter characters, throw Jules Weathermay into the mix. Van Richten becomes a close/true friend to Jules and over time the classic "burnout uncle" to George, Gennifer, and Laurie. His tales, both overheard late at night and cautionary tales when the kids are a bit older (or some combination thereof; maybe even a peak at a journal left behind), ultimately lead to all three following in his footsteps and becoming the monster hunters we all know them to be. Jules, seeing all of his remaining blood relatives (son, grandchildren) on such a potentially soul-damning path has naturally mixed feelings in the matter. It leads to deep and intense philosophical debates with Van Richten when they do reconnect, and sometimes when emotions are running high outright anger and blame. It's a complicated friendship to be sure..

The changes here aren't much really. Just fluff added to backstory for DMs to ponder the various faces of Van Richten, and at various points in his life and career. Instead of just "he's Lawful Good". And if I had a hand in presenting him in print I'd offer his stats for each tier of play, so to speak, to better represent his development and offer a slightly different Van Richten to DMs. Sticking hard to timelines can often make it easy to overlook such a simple yet essential thing. In my opinion.

[Gonzoron of the FoS]

While a homophobic Van Richten is certainly one way to spin things, I personally think the existing fact that he's flat-out racist for most of his career, until his change of heart in VRGttV is enough to "darken" his character without adding another flaw.

Also, if I may dip into pedant mode for a minute, Metus is bisexual, not strictly homosexual. It was his love for a vistani woman, Andrianna, which led him to Ravenloft. Whether or not this retcon added in Bleak House was motivated by an attempt to desexualize his interest in Erasmus to make it more palatable for the contemporary audience is something we'll probably never know. But, for as much as canon matters anymore, it's there.