It is back!!! What we do know about VR Guide to Ravenloft?

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Re: It is back!!! What we do know about VR Guide to Ravenlof

Post by Igor the Henchman »

In other news:
Falkovnia has been reimagined as a nightmarish Groundhog's Day-style loop, where a struggling nation—which happens to be ruled by a brutal warlord—is endlessly besieged by massive hordes of the walking dead, who just so happen to look like everyone this warlord has ever killed.
Just reading that additional tidbit, I finally get it. I see what they're aiming for with this domain, and gotta admit it's getting me kind of excited.

I once played in a D&D campaign built around this "kingdom besieged by zombie hordes" premise, and it was intense. I remember one time we even drove the DM crazy staying up till the wee hours of the night, just thinking up strategies ahead of a big zombie siege battle.

In a good DM's hands, this can be seriously fun. :twisted:
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Re: It is back!!! What we do know about VR Guide to Ravenlof

Post by Drinnik Shoehorn »

Igor the Henchman wrote:In other news:
Falkovnia has been reimagined as a nightmarish Groundhog's Day-style loop, where a struggling nation—which happens to be ruled by a brutal warlord—is endlessly besieged by massive hordes of the walking dead, who just so happen to look like everyone this warlord has ever killed.
Just reading that additional tidbit, I finally get it. I see what they're aiming for with this domain, and gotta admit it's getting me kind of excited.

I once played in a D&D campaign built around this "kingdom besieged by zombie hordes" premise, and it was intense. I remember one time we even drove the DM crazy staying up till the wee hours of the night, just thinking up strategies ahead of a big zombie siege battle.

In a good DM's hands, this can be seriously fun. :twisted:
I get it, but it’s not Falkovnia. It’s a great idea for a new domain, so why not do that?
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Re: It is back!!! What we do know about VR Guide to Ravenlof

Post by Drinnik Shoehorn »

Just seen a picture: Erasmus Van Richten is a ghost, so they haven’t brought him back. No clue if he was ever a vampire.
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Re: It is back!!! What we do know about VR Guide to Ravenlof

Post by Mephisto of the FoS »

Drinnik Shoehorn wrote:Just seen a picture: Erasmus Van Richten is a ghost, so they haven’t brought him back. No clue if he was ever a vampire.
In game mechanics it would be more appropriate if he was a Vampiric Mist than a ghost. Maybe Erasmus has a curse that makes him change from one Van Richten's Guide monster to the other.

Vampire - Ghost - Lich - Werebeast - Golem - Ancient Dead - Fiend - Vistana

Don't know for sure if Walkind dead Fey and Mist creature apply... (since the W-F Twins wrote those)

Duh!
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Re: It is back!!! What we do know about VR Guide to Ravenlof

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https://www.polygon.com/22417339/van-ri ... my-preview

Taking a moment to unpack this article.

First, let's talk about derivative tropes, shall we? Ravenloft has always been based on a Gothic setting. Castle Ravenloft and Strahd Von Zarovich have their roots firmly planted in the soil of Bram Stoker's Dracula, after all. So consider for a moment why that is. Why does Strahd ape the setting and traditions of some dusty book written over a century ago? Why is our whole Dungeons and Dragons setting based on a literary tradition that began in the 17th century? Is it perhaps that these "derivative tropes" Mr. Schneider has been so concerned about continue to effect audiences into the modern era? That they in fact have staying power? Maybe there is perhaps some reason that monsters like vampires, werewolves and the mummy are considered "classics" of the horror genre? Something doesn't remain a "classic" if it doesn't have the ability to grab the attention of the audience well beyond the day it was made.

I'm not gonna defend everything about the Gothic tradition. There's plenty of sexism and racism and eurocentrism in there to last a lifetime. Weeding out those elements of the Ravenloft setting I consider a worthy endeavor. And there is something to be said for toning down some of our darklords that represent the classic monster or gothic archetypes to make them their own entities. Strahd is arguably a unique character despite his clear Dracula inspiration. Victor Mordenheim, on the other hand, is so much the archetype for Frankenstein he might as well be Frankenstein. Some work in that area was perhaps warranted. A sex change for him and his monster? I feel like that was basically a surgeon choosing to operate with a chain saw instead of a scalpel. I have enormous misgivings about the book despite trying to reserve judgment until it comes out.

Moving on, I have no idea what 'problematic orientalist tropes" the article is referring to. The setting is intended to be steeped in Gothic Horror traditions, both from literature and classic horror movies. So obviously there was going to be darklord to fulfill the Mummy archetype. And just like Barovia inevitably was going to take elements of Transylvania for the setting, Har'akir was inevitably going to be based on Ancient Egypt. Van Richten's Guide to the Ancient Dead worked to expand the "options" for mummies into cultures and settings beyond that trope. But I think you kind of have to start with the monster cliche and work from there, and I defy anyone to argue that mummies as horror monsters aren't automatically paired with Ancient Egypt in the minds of 90% of us. What about any of that is a problem?

Also, just as an aside, why are we picking on Boris Karloff of all people? He barely spends ten minutes wrapped in bandages on screen in the The Mummy (most of the time he's masquerading as a normal man, successfully using guile and sorcery to move among the populous while pursuing his own agenda). Wouldn't Lon Chaney Jr. or Christopher Lee, the guys who lumbered around as Kharis in the sequels, be a better choice to talk about cliches and so on?

In any event, I'd think a few lines in the character description of Ankhtepot loathing his funerary rappings as a reminder of his internment and typically dressing in the style of a royal pharaoh or a peasant as much as possible would go a long way to eliminating that sterotype. Also, in all the portraits I've seen of him Ankhtepot doesn't look like "an english actor pretending to be Egyptian"....he looks like a desiccated, dried out 1000 year corpse. Never got much of a hint of his ethnicity through the rot, is all I'm saying. On the other hand, this new look...wow...I keep expecting someone to scream "this is Sparta" and chuck a spear at this guy's face. Or for him to pop up as a side character in the next Clash of the Titans movie. Seems like we traded the classic mummy monster look for a cartoon character.

BTW, Ankhtepot always felt like a mummy from a D&D setting...since he was from Ravenloft. And he was a fully realized character, thanks very much. As for the effort to make Har'akir a "non-egyptian" setting....as mentioned, I defy anyone to hear a casual description of a ancient mummy darklord ruling over a desert kingdom full of tombs and ruined temples and think of ANYTHING besides ancient egypt. I goddamn dare you. Its a lot of wasted effort to solve a problem that was never a problem in the first place. And if that isn't a description of Van Richten's Guide to Ravenloft overall I don't know what is.

Oh hey, we all have the writers working hard to make Har'akir a setting where the native inhabitants have full agency and can be played as player characters. And isn't it about time that someone stepped up and accomplished...exactly what the Ravenloft setting did twice, first in Domains of Dread in Second Edition and then again in the Ravenloft Core Book in 3rd edition. Thank god Schneider is here to do what ravenloft designers have worked hard to do for decades now. Whew. Also, with regard to foreigners coming in and robbing tombs and such. I get that there's a concern about eurocentrism here and that's all well and good. Its just...first off, tomb robbery was a problem in real world Egypt since basically the first time a king was buried with valuable grave goods 6000 years ago. It was a known danger of their society even before the pyramids were erected. Second, if this is the "problematic orientalism" the domain has "suffered" from...I don't recall the plot of a single har'akir adventure ever revolving around tomb robbery as such. Touch of Death basically involved a local priestess of Set resurrecting a mummy of her own to work against Ankhtepot and the PCs getting caught up in that mummy's efforts to build an army of the dead. Most other adventures at worst involved the PCs discovering something terrible happening to a tomb robber and taking steps to return what was stolen. Maybe there is an adventure I'm unfamiliar with. Certainly a given party could have run the game as a bunch of tomb raiders, but I don't recall that ever being to presumption. Shrug.

The nightmare logic bit just makes no sense to me whatsoever. Why is Har'Akir full of tombs and ancient temples? Uhhhh, could it be because their culture (which we are pretending is not Egyptian but is totally Egyptian) built a lot of temples and tombs, perhaps? Why is this even a question people would ask? It'd be more reasonable to wonder where all these crazy dungeons come from in a normal D&D setting. But typically I don't ask those questions because I signed up for a game in a fantasy RPG and there's an inherent amount of suspension of disbelief I take into the setting with me. Like I said, not sure what they are getting at here.

In the past versions of Ravenloft I think the designers worked to address the more problematic of the inherent cliches of gothic horror in supplements like (ironically) the original Van Richtens Guides. Efforts were made to encourage native player characters, describe the interaction and politics between the domains and generally make the world feel as alive and real as it possibly could given the monsters and the mysterious mists. This current projects seems to (at best) be ignorant of those efforts or (at worst) has contempt for them and the old Ravenloft source material. I am quite pessimistic about the end result at this point. I think this is going to be an overall inferior setting to the ones that came before, and ironically it is largely due to the fact this version of Ravenloft is ready to abandon what made the setting so strong (and abandon it in the most blatant, inelegant way possible, of course).
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Re: It is back!!! What we do know about VR Guide to Ravenlof

Post by Drinnik Shoehorn »

Nothri, you’ve said it far more eloquently than I have been able to.
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Re: It is back!!! What we do know about VR Guide to Ravenlof

Post by Mephisto of the FoS »

Drinnik Shoehorn wrote:Nothri, you’ve said it far more eloquently than I have been able to.
Yes he did

But...
Nothri wrote:As for the effort to make Har'akir a "non-egyptian" setting....as mentioned, I defy anyone to hear a casual description of a ancient mummy darklord ruling over a desert kingdom full of tombs and ruined temples and think of ANYTHING besides ancient egypt. I goddamn dare you.
The Bronze Age Mummies of the Gobi desert in China... :Brain:

but then again this could also be termed as orientalism.

When they speak about orientalism I believe they mean also Sri Raji, Rokushima Tayoo and similar domains, although I agree to what Nothri said on the matter with Har'Akir applies to those domains too.

But to add to what has been said before, The Green Hand secret society could also be used as a PC backround/character before and Falkovnia is one of the domains were the ancient dead from various cultures could be found but still they decided to change it to a Dawn of the Dead domain.

So to blame everything into orientalism to try to explain why instead of Ankhtepot we now have Xerxespot* is poor marketing strategy. Especialy when I hear of things that have appeared in past editions somehow "discovered" and "implemented for the first time" with enthusiasm in the new edition. Compared to other 5th edition products I guess these are new, but compared to past Ravenloft editions no.


*They actually wanted to make an icy domain ruled by a penguin mummy named Cobblepot, but they couldn't get the rights from DC to do that...
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Re: It is back!!! What we do know about VR Guide to Ravenlof

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nothri wrote: In the past versions of Ravenloft I think the designers worked to address the more problematic of the inherent cliches of gothic horror in supplements like (ironically) the original Van Richtens Guides. .
You had me until you decided the Van Richten's Guides were in any way addressing and confronting the more problematic of the inherent cliches in gothic horror.

The same guides that had hags be literally Chaotic Evil from birth, which is why they're all misogynistic stereotypes before they undergo the Change.

I would respectfully disagree with that post - it's quite clear from an article on Falkovnia on IGN (https://www.ign.com/articles/dnd-ravenl ... apocalypse) that 5e Ravenloft is leaning into being a frankly weird demiplane the more secrets you uncover, and aiming for an eerie, dreamlike feel as a stated design goal - but note that it is cutting the old Hammer Horror adherence free, and I get how that is a bit of a shift.

But this?

This is nostalgia goggles something bad.

I like the Guides, but frankly, contempt for, say, the Guide to the Vistani is the kind of opinion that gives me more faith in the writers, not less. Because the Vistani, when it comes down to it, are based on real people - and not even that far separated from them, as seen by the name of the Kalderesh tasque. To admit that wasn't okay? That it wasn't okay to reduce an entire living country to a background for a single village in the desert it was damn hard to actually be from? That's what confronting problematic tropes is. Don't just admit they exist - actually put in the work to improve them in some way.

Boris Karloff was a good actor, and I loved Imhotep. He was also a very white actor, playing someone who was from Africa. That's what they mean by Orientalism; to make a character who is supposed to be from a very specific culture and giving us only the perspective of an outsider claiming to be an insider. It wasn't his fault; it was the 1930s, even people who had the best of intentions didn't know any better. But now? From the perspective of a culture that is realizing that many of the common names that we have for the Pesedjet weren't even translations from Egyptian, but Greek (the Scroll of Thoth should really be the Scroll of Khemenu - or Sakhmet, to invoke a goddess who would actually be someone who provides eternal life), making Ankhtepot look like a mummy who actually resembles what an Egyptian would think of as someone imitating a god is the bare minimum of what to do.

Oh, and I can't help but notice, when defending Victor Mordenheim's masculinity, you seemed to have missed something: In OG Ravenloft, the darklord of Lamordia was the mad scientist's monster. That's not just a waste of potential - that's outright ignoring Mary Shelly, the original creator herself. The very fact the darklord is the person who actually holds the blame seems to imply that no, if it's a chainsaw they're using, it's because they're amputating a dead limb and giving the tree more room to grow. In fact, the doctor being a woman might actually be a better Frankenstein stand-in, if you take the theory that the Monster was a metaphor for an unwanted pregnancy and parental abandonment. (Byron was a jerk.)

Frankly, horror has evolved since the 80s and 90s. And thank God for that, even from a horror fan perspective without considering more social awareness of how awful a lot of gothic horror tropes were. We wouldn't have movies like Get Out (the horror of "positive" racism taken to it logical extension), or The VVitch (the ability of strictly patriarchal power structures to create their own monsters when anything else seems like a good alternative) if we didn't admit that yes, that kind of horror exists in the real world, and it's scary.
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Re: It is back!!! What we do know about VR Guide to Ravenlof

Post by Dion of the Fraternity »

Drinnik Shoehorn wrote:Just seen a picture: Erasmus Van Richten is a ghost, so they haven’t brought him back. No clue if he was ever a vampire.
He was. If you look at him closely, he has bite marks on his neck.
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Re: It is back!!! What we do know about VR Guide to Ravenlof

Post by Mephisto of the FoS »

Since I didn't know of Khemenu as a god I made a check and it is a city, the word means "the Eightfold" reffering to eight primordial deities. Thoth is more commonly used because of being more easily pronounced than the real Ancient Egyptian name not because of orientalism. Orientalism is an 19th century term while the Greek name "Thoth" was used in ancient times. As for the stereotype for hags you mentioned at first glance you are right.

"Though marvelous at birth, they tend to become unpleasant children as they age. Those of low intelligence are bullies and overly violent, while those who are smarter tend to terrorize other children when no adults are around, and vent their aggression by torturing small animals in secret. As they grow into womanhood, they develop what some would consider personalities defined by low moral character, although many of them manage to lead normal lives. Some even take husbands."

Although it doesn't exactly refer to what is defined as low moral character, the ending sentence does make you speculate what the writer means...
... and having a husband seems like an accomplishment.

But then it writes for each hag their role (in a way defining their imoralities)

"Annis born into cultures where such activities (women fighting) are frowned on will often leave their homes at a young age, or become murderers or rogues, living at the edge of society."

So it mentions how society in the game expects them to behave.

"young greenhags are desired by men and envied by women: their dark hearts, however, cause them to use their beauty to break hearts and ruin lives,"

"They are exceedingly vain and self-absorbed creatures who live equally for the joy that performing brings them and for the adoration of the crowds. They are also renowned for having many lovers at one time and for tiring of them rapidly (...) However, greenhags are also intensely jealous, and they are willing to go to great lengths to ruin someone they fear might present a competition for the limelight. This extends to paramours more flighty than they are."

I don't think it focuses on the polyamorous nature of greenhags that makes them evil but rather their vanity and jelousy.

"They are strong, healthy women of the type a matchmaker would describe as "ideal for childbearing." This often makes the years of a young sea hag's life a time of frustration and heartbreak, because they are never able to provide the children that they and their husbands want."

Using quotes in "ideal for childbearing" I think makes it obvious that the writer hasn't a misogynistic view of women.

"They are often married and appear for the most part to be happy in domestic life, with the exception of their apparent infertility. Still, their evil nature is often evident early on, as they are frequently numbered among the most vicious of gossips in the community."

For Sea hags it is not their infertility that makes them evil but their gossiping.

Conduct disorder when they are young , preoccupation with fantasies of unlimited success, power, brilliance, beauty, or ideal love, being interpersonally exploitative, lacking empathy since they are bullies and violent, being envious of others or believing that others are envious of them, showing arrogant, haughty behaviors or attitudes (as in the case of greenhags), (I would also add believing that they are "special" as they really are, but more because of overpamperring because of their marvelousness birth). All these are psychopathic or narcissistic tendencies I don't think there is something misogynistic about someone having those characteristics since these characteristics make anyone being either man, woman or transgender be identified as having antisocial personality disorder. The book is about monsters who take the form of women, who display antisocial tendencies, not women in general.

Now if you see that it is written from the view of how women were being expected to behave in the Middle Ages, then you are correct, but it doesn't mean that this is the writer's view and I don't believe it promotes misogyny.

My view is that the Demiplane of Dread is full of injustice and evil prevails in the Land of Mists so why make evil more tolerant.
Leliel wrote:Oh, and I can't help but notice, when defending Victor Mordenheim's masculinity, you seemed to have missed something: In OG Ravenloft, the darklord of Lamordia was the mad scientist's monster. That's not just a waste of potential - that's outright ignoring Mary Shelly, the original creator herself. The very fact the darklord is the person who actually holds the blame seems to imply that no, if it's a chainsaw they're using, it's because they're amputating a dead limb and giving the tree more room to grow. In fact, the doctor being a woman might actually be a better Frankenstein stand-in, if you take the theory that the Monster was a metaphor for an unwanted pregnancy and parental abandonment. (Byron was a jerk.).
For that I have to say that Adam is the darklord because Mordenheim's soul resides in him while Mordenheim himself is souless, having the knowledge and inteligence to create life but not the passion to create it (this is the reason they are psychically linked: the soul resides in the creature, the souless creature resides in the creator). And although Byron was a jerk I don't think that he was the father of Mary Shelley's child, she also started writting the book after the loss of a child not an unwanted pregnancy. Pregnant again only weeks later, she was likely still nursing her second baby when she started writing “Frankenstein,” and pregnant with her third by the time she finished.


“Nurse the baby, read,” she had written in her diary, day after day, until the eleventh day: “I awoke in the night to give it suck it appeared to be sleeping so quietly that I would not awake it,” and then, in the morning, “Find my baby dead.” With grief at that loss came a fear of “a fever from the milk.” Her breasts were swollen, inflamed, unsucked; her sleep, too, grew fevered. “Dream that my little baby came to life again; that it had only been cold, and that we rubbed it before the fire, and it lived,” she wrote in her diary. “Awake and find no baby.”

And the whole concept of a creature being sewn together by dead parts came to her in a dream.

“I saw—with shut eyes, but acute mental vision,—I saw the pale student of unhallowed arts kneeling beside the thing he had put together”.

Also Mary Wollstonecraft Godwin Shelley's mother, Mary Wollstonecraft (a famous 18th century feminist), died of an infection contracted during childbirth eleven days after MAry Shelley was born.

Awoke and found no mother.

If any man served as an inspiration for Victor Frankenstein, it was Lord Byron, who followed his imagination, indulged his passions, and abandoned his children. He was “mad, bad, and dangerous to know,” as one of his lovers pronounced, mainly because of his many affairs, which likely included sleeping with his half sister, Augusta Leigh. In the spring of 1816, Byron, fleeing scandal, left England for Geneva, and it was there that he met up with Percy Shelley, Mary Godwin, and Claire Clairmont (Mary's stepsister). Moralizers called them the League of Incest. By summer, Clairmont, not Mary, was pregnant by Byron.

Lord Byron for instance could have been a psychopath (as much as a young hag would be), even if he is an acknowledged poet and Greek national hero.

Info on Mary Shelley found here https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2018 ... ankenstein

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Leliel wrote:That it wasn't okay to reduce an entire living country to a background for a single village in the desert it was damn hard to actually be from?
Har'Akir is a backward village to make a contrast with the glory and majesty of the land of Akir and a part of Ankhtepot's curse. As the darklord of Har'Akir his domain is not in the least a reflection of his inflated self image, it is a land much too small for him. He craves to be mortal again and can achieve mortality for some time (as a Male Human, Aristocrat 1, Lawful Evil, CR 1/2) but even in this form what he craves is to be pharaoh of a large nation not a small village.
And why is it hard to be from there? Someone could be a Green Hand and you have the Akiri pantheon in the 3E setting book, also someone could be the child of slaves, since Har'Akir is one of the domains promoting slavery (half-elf Akiri desert ranger, halfling rogue acrobat etc). Why was it less likely to be from there than now? at least there at some time it became part of cluster of domains while in 5E it is again an island of Terror.

Karloff playing an Arab or Ancient Egyptian is not because of Orientalism but because of racism, as were face painted actors playing Native Americans, blackface makeup and ALL actors playing Fu Manchu. Orientalism is based on the racist idea that Western society is developed, rational, flexible, and superior.
But the mention of Karlof was "Have you seen this movie? Then play this Har'Akir adventure." in the interview is problematic, because you create an adventure based on the story of the film not on it's depiction by the actor.

Wes Schneider:“I think you’ll even see from the image that we have of Anhktepot that this is not Boris Karloff,”

Well it could...
If Karlof was alive and you asked him to play Xerxes in a multimillion dollar film I think he would accept...

BTW I am Greek and to have Althea as the only "Greek" reference with it's Santorini-like caldera and "Minonian" labyrinth or a stone giant-ghost from CotNGhosts is OK by me (still better than Hercules or Xena the Warrior Princess mythologicaly-wise). But anyway modern Greeks have culturally more in common with the Ottoman Empire based Hazlan than Althea's labyrinh, unless if you live next to a Greek restaurant in Astoria (Queens), even if the country just escaped from a labyrinth of economic turmoil to re-enter a pandemic and economic one...
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Re: It is back!!! What we do know about VR Guide to Ravenlof

Post by Dion of the Fraternity »

More interesting tidbits on the constant reinvention of Ravenloft. This one is taken from Facebook (James Lowder's page,to be more specific), and is from one of the production team which released Ravenloft 3E.
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Re: It is back!!! What we do know about VR Guide to Ravenlof

Post by Mephisto of the FoS »

Compared to that, everything is better...
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Post by Mephisto of the FoS »

Also Wes Schneidr sais in an interview:

"Something that I feel that many of the past editions of Ravenloft didn't focus on," Schneider says, "[was that] the dark lords have always been prisoners. But how are they suffering? How are they tormented? These are evil characters, and they're imprisoned and trapped here. Why is this a terrible experience most of all for them? That's something that really gets driven home throughout every one of the domains."

It was mentioned. It drives some of them to do destructive things (Azalin, Markov, Strahd, Vlad), for others they are more person oriented (Adam, Hazlik, H.Lukas, Jackie) while there are others who become destructive through others (G.Addere, Shinpi). It doesn't always have to be obvious or in game mechanics that's why it is called role playing, someone can portray the anguish for an unattainable love interest (d'Honaire), bitternes at the memory of a continuous love embrace or touch of another human(oid?) being (Ivana), the internal loss of not knowing who or what you are (Von Kharkov).
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Re: It is back!!! What we do know about VR Guide to Ravenlof

Post by Drinnik Shoehorn »

Dion of the Fraternity wrote:More interesting tidbits on the constant reinvention of Ravenloft. This one is taken from Facebook (James Lowder's page,to be more specific), and is from one of the production team which released Ravenloft 3E.
rl3e.jpg
He worked on Heroes of Light, the Gaz III and the RLDMG. Hardly a prolific Ravenloft writer.
"Blood once flowed, a choice was made
Travel by night the smallest one bade" The Ballad of the Taverners.
The Galen Saga: 2000-2005
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Wolfglide of the Fraternity
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Re: It is back!!! What we do know about VR Guide to Ravenlof

Post by Wolfglide of the Fraternity »

Mephisto wrote:
Nothri wrote:As for the effort to make Har'akir a "non-egyptian" setting....as mentioned, I defy anyone to hear a casual description of a ancient mummy darklord ruling over a desert kingdom full of tombs and ruined temples and think of ANYTHING besides ancient egypt. I goddamn dare you.
The Bronze Age Mummies of the Gobi desert in China... :Brain:
How about one of those peat-bog mummies? After climate change turns its homeland into a desert wasteland, its deep pocket of peat rises to the surface, and the mummy spills forth in a surge of moist bog matter that swiftly evaporates in the sun or is sucked dry by the cracked earth. That's one path to a non-Egyptian mummy darklord, though comparatively roundabout.
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