[VRGtR]: Alhoon's ramblings and discussions of them

[kourkenko]

Other than partially absorbing the ethereal plane's functions there isn't a lot of difference aside from the Raven Queen being added.


The Spelljammer adventure Under the Dark Fist actually had an option where the main villain gets pulled to Ravenloft and has a domain contained within a crystal sphere.

i konw this adveture, i played it (oh my god i feel old right now) several decades ago.

And for the shadowfell, i had to call one of my old sidekick, a planescape DM, and he explained me the differences between the shadowfell and the plane of shadow: their are none, it is the same plane. It became the shadowfell in the 4th edition with the Raven Queen but was retconned by Forgotten Realms novel. It is the same exact thing. Forgotten Realms books name it the Shadowfell, all other the Plane of Shadow. The raven queen lost control of it etc...

When the concept of the Shadowfell first appeared in 4e I had assumed that it was a result of the ToUD making The Demiplane of Dread be consumed by the Demiplane of Shadow and creating the Shadowfell that was considered a parallel plane, or an "echo" of the Material Plane. As long as Gwydion the Sorcerer-Fiend is trapped within the Obsidian Gate which s a portal connecting Ravenloft to the Plane of Shadow, I believe Ravenloft to still be within the Near Ethereal. Perharps the ToUD is the escape of Gwydion transporting The Land of Mists in the Demiplane of Shadow and creating the Shadowfell. If we take in account VGtR with the dissolution of the Core, the wanderings of Firan Zal 'honan, the slow dissolvement of Darkon to the Mists and the absence of the Shadow Rift, maybe Gwydion escaped, the Shadow Rift being the center of the Core made everything fall apart or Azalin with the help of the Gentelman Callers's Children managed to escape creating havok in the Demiplane. Now being inside the Shadowfell each domain can independently attach to a world in the Prime Material Plane thus it is again a "Weekend in Hell" setting instead of a campaign world.

I think i will use gwydion. It would break free and let the mist invade the whole plane, distrubing the balance of power. Could be a good TouD. But i think i will keep the Core, a week end in hell was the weakest time of the Ravenloft setting imo.

[Mephisto of the FoS]

I think i will use gwydion. It would break free and let the mist invade the whole plane, distrubing the balance of power. Could be a good TouD. But i think i will keep the Core, a week end in hell was the weakest time of the Ravenloft setting imo.

Yes it is weak, I wrote that as a "logical" explanation to 5e continuation. I still haven't bought VRGtR (I haven't decide if I want it, to use a few things from there and not as a collectible). I believe the new book cured me from my Ravenloft collective obsession, although I didn't buy Expedition to Castle Ravenloft too cause I didn't like the course it was taking.

[alhoon]

Btw, i hope they will do a remake of spelljammer, they can not do worse ^^.

Edit: and btw, it there any difference between the plane of shadow and the shadowfell ? I though the shadowfell was partially led by the Raven Queen.

They certainly can do worse. For starters, they may make the invasive pigmy giant space hamsters a real thing, with an ability to go for the eyes.

Shadowfell in my understanding is the new plane of shadow and as such, in my opinion a much much better place for Ravenloft than the "deep Ethereal". We now don't need the deep ethereal.

[Resonant Curse]

Miniature giant space hamsters have been a statted creature since 2nd edition Spelljammer, my friend.

[alhoon]

About the new Borca, Ivan and Ivana:

The new Borca seems... quite like the old Borca but with more freedom for the DM.
Ivana, in short, seems a bit... "less" than the old Ivana but she's recognizable. She appears less chaotic, less... insane, less cursed and more pragmatic. I do miss the 'kiss and you die' and the ermodenungs and I find the plant monsters a bit of a stretch.
Ivan now... I never liked the old Ivan. Well, I like the new Ivan even less, to be honest. Between the two, if I ran an adventure in Borca, I would use the old Ivan. Not that the new Ivan is a waste though; with a few changes I could see a similar childish toymaker that pesters people as a darklord of a different domain or perhaps just a villain, not necessarily a darklord. If I had to say... the new Ivan seems closer to the Ivan of the black box, that was not a darklord than the Ivan of Ravenloft 3e.

Still... I would prefer a new Ivan that works. The Old Ivan works (for me) better than 5e Ivan, but still not good enough. I was never sold on the "he misses the taste of things" and while his mastery of many poisons was good, new-Ivana has it. So... combining old Ivan with new Ivana creates overlapping.
Perhaps I will make Ivana less adept in the poison-making (but still bye-bye kiss) remove that peculiar "duplicate 7th lvl wizard spell with 1 hour in the lab" and leave her plants, while retaining the poisoner's excellence to Ivan.

Oooor... I could just eliminate Ivan completely and Borca remains the same anyway.

[HyperionSol]

Oooor... I could just eliminate Ivan completely and Borca remains the same anyway.

Well, the concept of two Darklords sharing a domain and fighting over it is a good trope. For Ivana, I say keep her poison elements, as that is one aspect of the culture Borca was made with. Her need for romantic love can be her curse still. Plants can be give or take, but it is to keep her powers based on the natural side of things. Plant and animal poisons, all sorts of naturally occurring toxins. I like how her youth and beauty remains keeping her from being taken seriously as a ruler despite her intelligence and maturity. Her side of Borca can represent traditions, the hard work of getting ahead, and the tried and true methods of getting things done.

Ivan on the other hand can focus on the artifice. He makes his tools and toys and use them to try and get one over his cousin. Complex mechanics he uses to deliver assassinations and deaths to people who displease him. His curse can be expanded to not be without his sense of taste, but he just can't feel enjoyment from the things he wants most of all. He is quickly bored of anything he takes an interest in. He knows it is enjoyable, but he just can't feel the sensation of enjoyment for long. LIke a thirsy man given just enough water to survive. This helps bring in his home design in previous editions, needing it to be new every so often so he can enjoy it for a short time. He also cannot feel the familial love he enjoyed as a spoiled child like with his sister since she is dead and the cousin he once so adored he now despises. This causes his childish tantrums which despite having the look of a lord the other nobility of Borca wants, no one can give him the respect and deference he believes he deserves. His part of Borca represents new ideas, the easy ways to get ahead, and new, flashy, and perhaps unreliable methods.

Kind of going over old and new editions of both of them, but the idea is putting them together for a new set of Dark Twins for 5E.

[Mephisto of the FoS]

About the new Borca, Ivan and Ivana:
I do miss the 'kiss and you die' and the ermodenungs and I find the plant monsters a bit of a stretch.

So she is more like Poison Ivy now, no I prefer the non-vampire Countess Bathory version.

the new Ivan seems closer to the Ivan of the black box, that was not a darklord than the Ivan of Ravenloft 3e.

I missed you there... old Ivan was Darklord of Dorvinia...

I believe Ivan is a really good villain, using his poisons to enslave people (borrowed time) but also his talent in making whatever poison he wants, imbuing items with poison as well. His immunity to poison makes him immune to Ivana's eternal beauty recipe as well.

I see him more like a Calligula/Nero kind of villain.

[alhoon]

I see him more like a Calligula/Nero kind of villain.

That's Easan the Mad

[Mephisto of the FoS]

I see him more like a Caligula/Nero kind of villain.

That's Easan the Mad

Nero had the idea that he was a great poet, some of his last words were Qualis artifex pereo ("What an artist dies in me") and goes well with Ivan's delusion that he is a great actor. Also his reign is commonly associated with unrestricted tyranny, extravagance, religious persecution and debauchery. Everything except religious persecution applies to Ivan too.

Caligula on the other hand is known for his cruelty, sadism, extravagance, and sexual perversion, as an insane tyrant in general. Ivan was extremely jealous of anyone who he saw as a competitor of his his sister affection, that lead him to murdering her husband and herself and attempting to kill their child. Caligula was accused of incest with his sisters, Agrippina the Younger, Drusilla, and Livilla. Thay describe him asan insane emperor who was self-absorbed, short-tempered, killed on a whim, and indulged in too much spending and sex.

If we take on account that Ivan took great pleasure from food, drink which makes him a person who enjoys the "pleasures of life" as well as the "pleasures of death" torturing/killing people in his Playroom of Castle Degravo (latin for pressing down), then we see a tyrannical character who has a lot in common with these two Roman Emperors.

Easan the Mad is an elf who shared or gashlighted to believe that he shared his body with a fiend. Trying to expel the fiend from himself to end this "dual existence" he was driven mad and turned his attention to mystical theories and experiments about the nature of the "Soul". Easan is more of a deranged psychotic mystic and creator of mechanical (soulless) constructions imbued with a soul or an animating force (Ahmi Vanjuko, The Shadow Serpent) than a psychopathic emperor.

Now in 5th edition I speculate that they tried to combine Easan with Ivan, that's why Ivan is turned into an inventor...

[alhoon]

I would say you go a bit too deep with it while it is not so complex.
I believe that a best synopsis on the whole "Easan is inspired by Caligula and Nero" is the following:
Easan the Mad is a capricious madman given too much power that thinks himself a god and is the darklord of a Roman-era classical domain. Caligula was a capricious madman given too much power that thought himself a god and was the Emperor of Rome. Nero (and a bunch of other mad emperors / kings / Tyrants, not just Romans) were capricious madmen given too much power.
That Easan happens to be an elf and his backstory making him more gothic than Caligula doesn't change that the 'core' of what he is aligns with Caligula. However, Easan is more than the Ravenloft copy of Caligula, thus the differences.

[Mephisto of the FoS]

I would say you go a bit too deep with it while it is not so complex.

I disagree, characters should be deep and complex in my opinion, it makes them more lifelike, because their motives drives them to do whatever they do (but what I just wrote is a bit out of context, so I will start again with saying...)
I don't believe it is complex, the first impression I had from Ivan when I first read about him almost 30 years ago was that he had many similarities with Nero. For me Ivan was the Ravenloft Nero, as for Ivan's "enamored?" with his sister aspect... one of the main things Caligula was known for except than planning to make his horse, Incitatus, a consul, and appointing him a priest, was his incest with his sisters especially with Agrippina.

Easan is viewed by the natives of Vechor as a god, it is not something he has imposed on them, it is what they believe because the land changes at his whim. Although he enjoys this from time to time, for the most part he remains obsessed with finding secrets of the soul. Easan only looks for a cure for his madness, but he is willing to tear many innocent lives apart, and maybe even reality itself, to find a cure. His vile research has focused on souls and soul transference.

Nero and Caligula may have also teared many innocents apart but for totally different reasons from Easan. Nero in one occasion for instance ordered for a young boy he fancied to be castrated and be always dressed as a woman in public. Nero is also known for kicking his pregnant wife Poppaea to death, don't forget that Ivan killed his wife Lucretia Marzeya in 716 BC. Easan's transgressions have nothing to do with the two Roman emperors, his motives are totally different, so I don't believe it is complexed on the contrary it is very simple.

[alhoon]

A few things about new Bluetspur:
- It honestly seems just a bigger version of Bluetspur. Personally, I would scale it back to usual domain size although "domain size" was always "as big as needed".
- I prefer version of the God brain that is "an immortal stricken with mortality"

[Mephisto of the FoS]

A few things about new Bluetspur:
- It honestly seems just a bigger version of Bluetspur. Personally, I would scale it back to usual domain size although "domain size" was always "as big as needed".
- I prefer version of the God brain that is "an immortal stricken with mortality"

Why is this a bigger version? The alien abduction concept had already in The Realms Beyond Kargatane article.
I like the concept of the Illithid God Brain being a Thaani human as it was before, because the story is more tragic, creating a reason for the domain to form. Also the concept of the Elder Brain dying appeared in the old Kargatane background story. I believe it misses in abducting psychics as it was there which I liked as a mystery but was narrowing it a bit, instead now the Elder Brain abducts everybody. The dying Elder-Brain may also explain why the Elder -Brain thought of becoming an Elder Vampiric Brain in Thoughts of Darkness. I would probably combine the two ideas having the Elder-Brain being once a human who exploited the dying illithid civilisation and taking over the Elder-Brain who was dying. But now maybe instead of just regretting of not having a body and yerning for physical contact he could also be dying.

[Hell_Born]

A few things about new Bluetspur:
- It honestly seems just a bigger version of Bluetspur. Personally, I would scale it back to usual domain size although "domain size" was always "as big as needed".
- I prefer version of the God brain that is "an immortal stricken with mortality"

Why is this a bigger version? The alien abduction concept had already in The Realms Beyond Kargatane article.
I like the concept of the Illithid God Brain being a Thaani human as it was before, because the story is more tragic, creating a reason for the domain to form. Also the concept of the Elder Brain dying appeared in the old Kargatane background story. I believe it misses in abducting psychics as it was there which I liked as a mystery but was narrowing it a bit, instead now the Elder Brain abducts everybody. The dying Elder-Brain may also explain why the Elder -Brain thought of becoming an Elder Vampiric Brain in Thoughts of Darkness. I would probably combine the two ideas having the Elder-Brain being once a human who exploited the dying illithid civilisation and taking over the Elder-Brain who was dying. But now maybe instead of just regretting of not having a body and yerning for physical contact he could also be dying.

I feel obligated to point out that the idea of the God-Brain being a human mind that has taken over the body of an Elder-Brain was something created in netbook canon by the Kargatane back in the 90s. As far as WoTC is concerned, the only backstory the God-Brain had prior to that was its iteration from the original box sets, where it literally has no backstory whatsoever and the book just handwaves its presence entirely as "nobody knows".

[alhoon]

Yeap. What HB says is true. That story was never canonical...
but I don't really care about canon. I care about ideas. And I prefer the alien-minded, cosmic-horror version of an all-powerful immortal creature that has to suddenly deal with mortality.