Alchemical Philosopher 3E frustrations: fixing it

[tomokaicho]

The Alchemical Philosopher is a 3E prestige class introduced in Van Richten's Arsenal Volume I (there is no volume 2). Entry into the PrC requires Brew Potion (which in turn requires caster level 3, so the character entering the class will have at least some spellcasting ability), and Spell Focus (Transmutation).

The Pickled Punk, a member of this forum, has already done a basic update to 3.5e of the Alchemical Philosopher. As follows:

Hit Die: d4.
Requirements
To qualify to become an alchemical philosopher, a character must fulfill all the following criteria.
Skills: Craft (alchemy) 8 ranks, Knowledge (arcana) 6 ranks.
Feats: Brew Potion, Spell Focus (Transmutation).

Class Skills
Bluff (Cha), Concentration (Con), Craft (Int), Decipher Script (Int), Heal (Wis), Knowledge (all except the planes) (Int), and Use Magic Device (Cha).
Skill Points at Each Level: 4 + Int modifier.

Should be the end of story, but not even close. Like most of the Ravenloft 3E classes, the Alchemical Philosopher is a dud. To explain why, first I have to write about how Alchemical Philosophy works.

Alchemical Philosophy is a number of alchemical formulae feats. A dabbler in Alchemical Philosophy can use their feats to cherry pick the things that they like, and become a reasonably competent Alchemical Philosopher. The most optimum choices are the alchemical children feats. While these feats are separated into three ranks, called permutations (1st, 2nd and 3rd respectively), this is misnomer in function. If using a feat slot, a character can take any of the alchemical formulae for which it meets the prerequisites. If however an Alchemical Philosopher (the PrC) uses the bonus formula gained through its class features, then it is limited to the permutation ranks given in the table. This is only for the bonus formula mentioned in the table; Alchemical Philosophers (the PrC) can use their general feats for any permutation it meets the prerequisites for just like any other character.

Here is the problem. The fomulae are interesting, but nothing in the Alchemical Philosopher PrC class features justifies the fact that it does not have spellcasting progression. Did the designers deliberately create one of the worst PrCs in the game? All I can think is that this was in error, and oversight, and that the Alchemical Philosopher PrC was published before the mistake was discovered.

The question is, how much spellcasting to progression to give? My inclination is to be generous, or there would be very little reason for any character to see the Alchemical Philosopher PrC through to the end. Thoughts?

[Mistmaster]

Cast the prestige class aside and substitute it with Pathfinder's Alchemist class.

[tomokaicho]

Cast the prestige class aside and substitute it with Pathfinder's Alchemist class.

The the Pathfinder Alchemist and Alchemical Philosopher are thematically very different. I want to fix the Alchemical Philosopher not cast it aside entirely. As I mentioned, I believe that the lack of spellcasting progression must have been in error.

[alhoon]

Ahh... the AP.
I love that prestige class and to be honest... I wasn't aware that it hasn't spellcasting progression.

I may throw one revision of it for 5e at some point.

[tomokaicho]

Ahh... the AP.
I love that prestige class and to be honest... I wasn't aware that it hasn't spellcasting progression.

You can't be faulted for thinking that it must have spellcasting progression. It requires spellcasting to enter the class. Not having spellcasting is just bizarre.

[tomokaicho]

I went ahead and fixed it. It is now a 7/10 spellcasting class. Entry is the same - any spellcasting class can enter. It has BAB medium BAB. It is now as much Indiana Jones as Gargamel (from the Smurfs). I also made a capstone for the class - Magnum Opus (Great Work), with various different options to choose from.

It will appear in QtR #29.

[Wolfglide of the Fraternity]

I will be interested to see the new version. I agree that, as originally written, the class sort of disincentivizes delving too deep. A few levels to pick up some 1st permutation formulae was all I gave Victor Gagné.

I do find myself wondering if making the formulae into feats is part of the problem. The formulae are not technically in the category of item-creation feats, but they are similar in function. However, each item creation feat gives one access to a class of items (wondrous items, magical arms and armor, wands, etc.), whereas each formula gives access to a single alchemical concoction. Furthermore, like other item creation feats, there is a considerable amount of downtime that must be invested to actually get anything out of these feats. A wizard that qualifies to take Quintessence could instead take Arcane Disciple from Complete Divine, which would grant access to the entire healing domain of spells, as well as the ability to brew potions of cure serious wounds, which would be slightly better for healing. Still, I will admit that Quintessence costs no XP to make, is cheaper, can harm undead, and perhaps isn't technically a magical item. There are some advantages to Quintessence, but the long-term gain of getting access to more spells in addition to making a functionally similar potion seems comparable.

As such, I wonder if the formulae should be moved out of the feat system. Perhaps learning a formula requires some expensive research and development up front, plus an investment in the equipment necessary to make it. It would be like a wizard adding to his or her spellbook. This would make it seem more like a scientific venture, where advancement requires funds and time, and as long as those can be found, a dedicated researcher can continue to advance, without being limited by abstract feat slots. That just seems better to me narratively, and I think a balanced system could be made to govern it.

Integrating with an existing or revised Alchemical Philosopher would probably involve replacing the free formula feats with significant discounts on research and development for formulae, plus a new class of feats tweaking the process of alchemy could come into play (such as granting the ability to make more doses at once, or other such perks).

[tomokaicho]

As such, I wonder if the formulae should be moved out of the feat system. Perhaps learning a formula requires some expensive research and development up front, plus an investment in the equipment necessary to make it. It would be like a wizard adding to his or her spellbook. This would make it seem more like a scientific venture, where advancement requires funds and time, and as long as those can be found, a dedicated researcher can continue to advance, without being limited by abstract feat slots. That just seems better to me narratively, and I think a balanced system could be made to govern it.

The feat system might seem to be the problem on the surface, but it isn't the root problem. The problem is the horrific opportunity cost imposed by taking the Alchemical Philosopher prestige class. You get 10 inferior feats over 10 levels and get no spellcasting progression. Most of the alchemical formulae are more role playing oriented than something you can actually use in combat. Alchemical Philosopher PCs are pretty much useless and can't contribute to the party.

Integrating with an existing or revised Alchemical Philosopher would probably involve replacing the free formula feats with significant discounts on research and development for formulae, plus a new class of feats tweaking the process of alchemy could come into play (such as granting the ability to make more doses at once, or other such perks).

The feat system is actually quite an elegant way of allowing non Alchemical Philosophers to dabble in High Alchemy. The solution is to beef up the Alchemical Philosopher. Here is an introduction to the class I wrote up.

Alchemical Philosopher

Alchemical Philosophers practice High Alchemy. Not merely potion brewers, all Alchemical Philosophers are dedicated to pursuing the Great Work, their own personal Magnum Opus of transformation and self-actualization. Dabblers in High Alchemy, such as characters that take feats to learn formulae without being an Alchemical Philosopher, never achieve the Great Work. Magnum Opus is the sole domain of Alchemical Philosophers.

Alchemical Philosophers can be found adventuring, seeking the Great Work. All kinds of spellcasters can be Alchemical Philosophers, and Alchemical Philosophers are marginally better mundane combatants than regular wizards or sorcerers, although their low hit points put them in jeopardy on the front lines. For every Gargamel-like (from the Smurfs) Alchemical Philosopher out there, there are two that are closer in style to Indiana Jones.

In the Ravenloft setting, High Alchemy is a mainstream practice in Paridon. Human dabblers take formulae feats, and the more dedicated alchemists become Alchemical Philosophers. Doppelgangers in Paridon have their own form of High Alchemy called Alchemical Paths. It is rumored that doppelgangers that master Alchemical Philosophy and achieve Magnum Opus can attempt to follow the Path of Gold, Via Aurum (VRS Society: Doppelgangers, page 106). If so, a doppelganger Alchemical Philosopher is a terrifying prospect. Fortunately, most doppelgangers prefer to follow the Alchemical Paths exclusively.

Since you do 3.5e Ravenloft, I will send you what I have done by PM. Please take a look at let me know what you think.

[Rock of the Fraternity]

Just because the formulas aren't directly applicable in battle doesn't make Alchemical Philosophers useless or non-contributing. o_0

Some of the formulas would be a godsent during investigations. Alchemical life could help save a PC whose body has been crippled, or provide hirelings guaranteed to be loyal. There's a lot of healing power in those formulas as well, which an arcane caster can access through them.

You could make your adventuring party a bundle of money by selling the right formulas to the right crowd, keeping the group in supplies and housing, or allowing them to purchase that expensive item they need to finish a quest.

And let's not forget you can unleash your creativity to create new chains of feats, just as Wolfglide did for the first Conference of Victor Gagné.

RPGs are not just about combat. Alchemical Philosophy is, to me, a fun, versatile and interesting addition to Ravenloft, with a lot of potential for both heroics and villainy. It expands the opportunities for roleplay.

[tomokaicho]

Just because the formulas aren't directly applicable in battle doesn't make Alchemical Philosophers useless or non-contributing. o_0

Non-contributing... in combat.

Some of the formulas would be a godsent during investigations. Alchemical life could help save a PC whose body has been crippled, or provide hirelings guaranteed to be loyal. There's a lot of healing power in those formulas as well, which an arcane caster can access through them.

You could make your adventuring party a bundle of money by selling the right formulas to the right crowd, keeping the group in supplies and housing, or allowing them to purchase that expensive item they need to finish a quest.

Its not that easy. Many DMs follow Wealth By Level rules closely. It relies on downtime and various other factors that aren't in the control of the player.

And let's not forget you can unleash your creativity to create new chains of feats, just as Wolfglide did for the first Conference of Victor Gagné.

Good feats, those.

RPGs are not just about combat. Alchemical Philosophy is, to me, a fun, versatile and interesting addition to Ravenloft, with a lot of potential for both heroics and villainy. It expands the opportunities for roleplay.

This isn't roleplaying vs combat. The Alchemical Philosopher presented in Van Richten's Arsenal Volume 1 violates 3.5e design principles. It violates so many of them that all I can think is that the spellcasting, which I guess was supposed to be full progression, was accidently left out.

If I wanted to kill Alchemical Philosophy I would have taken Mistmaster's suggestion upthread to "cast aside" the Alchemical Philosopher in favour of the Pathfinder Alchemist, or even agreed with Wolfglide that High Alchemy needs reworking. What needs reworking is the Alchemical Philosopher, to put it back in line with 3.5e design principles.

There is no point in me talking about it. I will put my design where my mouth is. Check your PMs. My 3.5e version will be sent to you.

EDIT: Here is a previous thread where I wrote about this problem. I've been thinking about it for a long time. Wolfglide is also in there.

[Mephisto of the FoS]

Here is the problem. The fomulae are interesting, but nothing in the Alchemical Philosopher PrC class features justifies the fact that it does not have spellcasting progression. Did the designers deliberately create one of the worst PrCs in the game? All I can think is that this was in error, and oversight, and that the Alchemical Philosopher PrC was published before the mistake was discovered.

No error there...

From Van Richten's Arsenal I

No soul is as devoteded as the alchemical philosopher. For him, alchemy is not a footnote in a catalog of arcane lore; it is a path to Truth, if not Truth itself. The alchemical philosopher abandons his old life's path as if he had been groping about blindly in the darkness of ignorance. Alchemy becomes his sole focus, and its greatest mysteries his ultimate ambition.

So this explains the non-advance in a spellcasting class. Aslo the formulas are so powerful that to me it makes sense to sacrifice spellcasting advancement for the betterment of the self, mankind etc. Or else an Alchemical Philosopher would be really powerful. Imagine that an alchemical Philosopher can clone ones self and become essentialy immortal at 7th level add to that 5 class levels for prime requisite rank a total 12th level character is able to clone oneself, regenerate and have other powers of the 3rd permutation.

The regeneration spell is 7th level and a 13th level cleric is needed to cast it while the clone spell is an 8th level spell that a spellcaster has to be at least 16th level. For me not advancing in spellcasting makes sense and also it can be used to create alchemical philosophers without being of a spellcasting class, the class prime requisite Spell Focus can be taken as a philosophical approach to magic.

Also an Alchemical Philosopher needs a laboratory, so adventuring is a bit strange anyway but don't forget that Alchemy becomes his sole focus, so adventuring is probably out of the question for this class, unless in search of an ingredient, a book a something scholarly etc.

But even so I am interested in your take for next years issue.

[tomokaicho]

From Van Richten's Arsenal I

No soul is as devoteded as the alchemical philosopher. For him, alchemy is not a footnote in a catalog of arcane lore; it is a path to Truth, if not Truth itself. The alchemical philosopher abandons his old life's path as if he had been groping about blindly in the darkness of ignorance. Alchemy becomes his sole focus, and its greatest mysteries his ultimate ambition.

So this explains the non-advance in a spellcasting class.

I wouldn't put too much stock in this boilerplate. This is a reference to Hermetic Alchemy, the pursuit of the Great Work (Magnum Opus). If you had spellcasting progression, it would not preclude any of that fluff. It is possible that spellcasting was left out deliberately. In that case, it is a mistake in the design. Let me explain as I explained to someone else in PMs.

Here is the design philosophy, and the problem with the original AP. The original AP is just horrible.

*One good save. Two bad saves.
*Requires spellcaster but no spellcasting progression.
*d4 HD.
*Low BAB.
*Requires 2 feats to enter.
*No weapons or armor proficiency.

Individually none of this is a problem. As a package, the original AP flouts basic design conventions. Something has to give. Several things. If something is this bad, it should better BAB. Or better saves. Or spellcasting progression. Or less stringent prerequisites. Or give weapon and armor proficiency or feats. The original AP is packaged as the worst of everything, and that only happens when it is a full spellcasting progression prestige class with a number of good class features. As they say, "this ain't it, chief".

This is why I suspect that the AP was supposed to be full spellcasting progression but somehow it slipped through the cracks and was omitted. It is possible it was just badly designed against every 3.5e design convention. If so, it is the most severe examples among the many bad 3E examples of the Ravenloft line.

How do you fix it? You give it back some spellcasting. The easiest way is just give it full spellcasting progression, and then calling it a day. But we have a problem. The AP is not merely a PrC for wizards and Sorcerers, but all spellcasters, including Bards, Clerics and so on. These other spellcasters have medium BAB. Going down to low BAB is a major change in play style for these classes, and cannot be justified by merely giving them full spellcasting progression. Therefore, the BAB must go up to medium. Going up to medium BAB doesn't necessarily mean that spellcasting progression must be restricted. The Unseen Seer has medium BAB and has the same level for entry (level 6) as the AP. It has full spellcasting progression.

Now we are looking at our prerequisites. Brew Potion. That makes sense. Spell Focus (Transmutation). OK, Spell Focus (Transmutation) is there to impose a price. Lets work with it.

Some of the classes entering AP do not make very credible transmuters. That's OK, because as APs they will be learning on the job. We will give them a class feature called Advanced Learning (Ex), that appears in a number of classes. Advanced Learning (Ex) will only allow learning transmutation spells. In addition, we will give a version of the red wizard's spell power, affecting transmutation spells only. At this point we are looking at the AP maybe losing one level of spell progression to balance it out. We aren't finished yet.

Now we need a proper capstone. Some of my Magnum Opus ideas actually come from material that has appeared in QtR, such as the Doppelganger Apotheosis. There is a high alchemist attempting to do it in Paridon. Now it can be done. Eternal Youth can be acquired through Enlightened Parent (I will probably change it to Enlightened Alchemist) through the Idealized ability of the enlightened children. Memory of Man gives some abilities that are kind of similar to that of a binder (but can't be changed). Like Magnum Opus, Memory of Man can be elaborated on by later authors. 7/10 spellcasting seems a reasonable sacrifice. And note there is something at every level. If you don't get spellcasting, you get something else significant beyond a formula.

There you have it. A version of AP that is balanced for every spellcasting class that can enter it. Neither too strong nor too weak. It can contribute to the party on various fronts. It has great flavour. And now the AP has a purpose - the Great Work. Just like historical alchemists.

The above references some things that will appear in my reworked AP in QtR #29. The AP has to be reworked because it is simply unfair for a party, especially the AP player, to make such a sacrifice for what amounts to a lot of fluff. This is one case where the problem is easily fixed.

[Rock of the Fraternity]

It finally hit me.
The reason why your objections to the Alchemical Philosopher don't sit right with me.

Looking at the PrC, you can see this is a class that is all about production. It allows you to make things by giving you a whole slew of bonus item creation feats.
Entering the PrC means you want to be that guy; the master alchemist bottling miracles and defying the natural order in ways other classes can't.
It's not "unfair"; it's someone's jam to be this guy, making the tools other players will come to rely on, making new things, thinking their way around problems instead of blowing them up.

People call Fighters boring, but they also get a whole slew of feats to make them good at what they do best: get in melee, tank damage and kill the other guy. And they don't work in a vacuum, either; there are other players doing other jobs, allowing the team to win.
They play their role. It is not a role that is completely unmissable, but it adds to the party's options.
And if someone enjoys the role enough to commit to levelling up in it, they commit. They keep adding levels, sacrifice other options.

Someone wants to be the guy with a huge amount of item creation feats. The price? Spellcasting power. If he loves the item creation enough, he won't care. He doesn't need 9th-level slots to make clones or homunculi, he can do it with two to three feats.
If he loves alchemical philosophy well enough, he can come close to getting all the feats.
If the party finds they benefit from what their Alchemical Philosopher creates, then it does not matter that he isn't turning their enemies to stone or dust with spells. He's a backup healer, an investigator, a maker of obedient servants.

If someone does not want to sacrifice advanced spellcasting power for High Alchemy, they can just use feat slots to dabble.

It's all about how someone wants to play the game and their character.

By all means go ahead with your redesign. Like I said, it's about how someone wants to play the game. But the Alchemical Philosopher as-is, is not worthless.
It's another option.

[tomokaicho]

By all means go ahead with your redesign. Like I said, it's about how someone wants to play the game. But the Alchemical Philosopher as-is, is not worthless.
It's another option.

If a player went with AP as written and didn't feel useless when the other PCs are doing cool stuff, I will eat my hat. I would bet that most of them give up in frustration.

I hear your objections but there are design principles at work. If you want to see a good item crafting class, have a look at the Artificer.

If you insist on no spellcasting for the AP, then you have to give them something else. Many something else. Better saving throws. More skill points. Higher HP per level. Better BAB. Something. Even if you allow the AP player significant downtime, its almost a certainty that the player will feel useless and an afterthought. This isn't a problem facing NPCs because there is no human being behind them with feelings.

So if you say "no spellcasting", then you have to say what you will give them. Otherwise you have the worst class chassis in the game and an absolute incentive for cherry picking high alchemy feats instead of ever taking levels in this class. At best, a dip. Its sad.

[Wolfglide of the Fraternity]

Looking at the PrC, you can see this is a class that is all about production. It allows you to make things by giving you a whole slew of bonus item creation feats.
Entering the PrC means you want to be that guy; the master alchemist bottling miracles and defying the natural order in ways other classes can't.
It's not "unfair"; it's someone's jam to be this guy, making the tools other players will come to rely on, making new things, thinking their way around problems instead of blowing them up.

It certainly depends on the player's taste. Personally, without modifying the class or high alchemy itself to break the feat limit on learning formulae, I would probably end up disappointed with a character that is an alchemical philosopher. It comes down to the desire to invent new formulae; the moment I fill in my last feat slot, I can't master any new formulae, even if I have a cool idea. The moment the character stops advancing in level, it becomes Azalin Rex---lots of inventiveness, but no ability to create anything new.

That being said, with the involvement of the feat retraining rules that I hear exist in the PHBII, one can circumvent this limitation. It actually seems like a fairly realistic solution to the problem---there are plenty of things I have learned in the real world that I would need to spend time reviewing in order to use properly again.
However, I don't own the PHBII, so I generally don't take retraining into consideration.