Level Draining

[TheArcaneWeirdo]

Can someone please explain to me the in-world logic behind this mechanic? I just don't get it. Cause D&D experience levels are made out of factors - how can a vampire drain all of them at once?

Like, I get the horror rational: Around the table, 'blood' is just a bit of HP. Players in a combat-centered game are used to losing HP. It's nothing new. So a vampire sucking a party member's blood just isn't as terrifying as it's supposed to be - something else has to fill that role.
Now, the reason we can get so apathetic about characters getting injured is that it's the characters' bodies, not ours. We don't feel their pain. As long as they don't drop bellow zero, as far as we're concerned nothing changes. We can keep fighting, and a few healing spells and a long rest will fix everything. Personally I don't care about getting hurt in the game until two thirds of my HP are lost.
Levels, on the other hand, are far more intimate in the game. They're something we worked hard over the course of the campaign to earn, something that influences our ability to fight, and something that takes far longer to get back. Draining them is the surest way to make your players cry. (Might be too good at that, though - resulting in 'Too Bleak, Stopped Caring' - Which is another reason why it's problematic.)
But is there a arcanological explanation?

[alhoon]

The in-world explanation, as far as I remember is that the energy drain, drains your soul and life-vitality and weakens you. This results in you being able to take less damage, hit with less precision and cannot cast as powerful spells.
Draining a point of constitution or two would IMO be more appropriate. But that's me.

[Isolde]

Since it never made sense to me in any shape or form (mages cannot cast spells and forget them, clerics see to lose faith as they lose spells and skills/proficiency and the rest lost as if its a selective amnesia is just silly) and wasted time in-game and wasted all the time we played in general, i replaced energy drain with;

A persistent curse-like penalty (life force is drained a link is created that leaks energy to the negative material plane or in general a spiritual injury of sorts) that is substantial, that also stacks. This keeps the creature causing it dangerous as it will weaken the victim in combat so it can be defeated by the creature and is a "scary" effect since the penalty is persistent and does not pass via time but by a clerical spell, like the standard energy drain effect.

1)It can be -1 or -2 penalty per blow that stack up to a point, but not infinite. Keep it at -4 to -12 depending on the creature.

2)Or by exhaustion-type levels mechanics. Each energy drain takes the victim one level lower. Keep them 5 or 7 exhaustion/vitality-like levels (like in 3.5 it has several but you can add a few more conditions to make it gradual) that persist. So in this case life force is indeed drained the victim experiences constant tiredness and lack of energy, of its vital force. The last levels could be stunned, paralysis/helpless etc.

When this "penalty solution" is chosen the energy drain capacity of creatures, spells etc should checked and to not have too many (1 minimum, 2-4 max for extremely powerful sources) being able to occur per round by a single source, as it can then become pretty stupid like the "lose a level and you also forget a bunch of stuff".

Having a 10th level fighter or mage or cleric become 1st level by being vampirized or struck by a wight or other undead makes no sense. Having them lose vital force and being penalized for it makes sense and keep the monsters dangerous, since they will kill you and turn you into some undead very likely and the players and their characters will wish to avoid such a state.

Loss of time in the sessions must be taken into account, as well as the fact that we have been playing for 3 years and the characters are level 7 and having them become level 2 is just lame and illogical even in a magical fantastic world.

[Mephisto of the FoS]

2)Or by exhaustion-type levels mechanics. Each energy drain takes the victim one exhaustion level lower. Keep them 5 or 7 exhaustion/vitality-like levels (like in 3.5 it has several but you can add a few more conditions to make it gradual) that persist. So in this case life force is indeed drained the victim experiences constant tiredness and lack of energy, of its vital force. The last levels could be stunned, paralysis/helpless etc.

I like this one.

[Isolde]

i liked the idea of a maiden, some random peasant girl or other, being vampirized and of course as the vampire is drinking her blood (not making her into one) she does not just drop dead like a sack of potatoes like in the oversimplified "energy drain, lose one level, oh you are a level 0/1 commoner or something and its over." It takes lots of time (the vampire can just drink all her blood at once but that would make him noticed).

She gets tired and more tired and more helpless and drained, enervated.

And this keeps the undead monsters not scary due to being "energy drainers of the levels, oh fuck my xp are gone!" but a formidable atmospheric foe due to other reasons. The mechanics must support the story, atmosphere and immersion, especially and even more so in ravenloft adventures.

So another problem with the official energy mechanic is that it broke the immersion for storytelling and encounters etc. So the vampire or other undead did this and that and how are they not all dead or undead? Are all the villagers, townsfolk 5-10 level characters?

The deadliness of the energy drain remains as a factor to the prowess of the undead, but without all the burdensome useless stuff that went with it.

Also there was some sort of "petty punishment" feel involved with the official energy drain mechanic that just did not sit well with me.

[Mephisto of the FoS]

Also there was some sort of "petty punishment" feel involved with the official energy drain mechanic that just did not sit well with me.

I never used it as a permanent thing cause it is cruel to the players and kills off the game. The few times I have used it they were able to gain their levels after a few days good sleep. But still it was silly. I like the exhaustion mechanic cause it is logical but deadly too, don't forget that undead are immune to fatigue, so even fighting them can be a deadly experience as the PCs will get tired but undead won't, imagine that now with this someone may get tired sooner than expected.

[Isolde]

The problem is that the prowess of some undead or other beings became the fact they can make the player character lose levels (in effect real time which makes the game suck), when its prowess, of a vampire or other undead, is all other things they can do. Those other things are part of the Gothic Horror genre and atmosphere, so this reduced immersion and gave primacy to "oh fuck we are going to lose levels" which is not fun at all. This actual level loss made the creatures that had it just a level drainer and the impact of their presence in an encounter was just that. But its all the other things;

"Vampires do exist. And this one we fight, this one we face, has the strength of twenty or more people, and you can testify for that, Mr. Harker. But he can also control the meaner things of life: the bat, the rodent, the wolf. He can appear as mist, as vapour, as fog, and vanish at will. Now all these things Dracula can do, but he is not free. He must rest in the sacred earth of his homeland to gain his evil power. It is here that we must find him and destroy him utterly." - Abraham Van Helsing from Bram Stoker's Dracula 1992

Dracula (1992) ... Van Helsing - Vampires Do Exist ( Scene )
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AFNz-Rm81BM

Strangely and sadly, the non-combat power, drinking blood, became its combat "capacity" and of course the other idiocy; game mechanics exist where there is no need to drink blood to energy drain but just touch, gaze (what is next, just thinking about people in passing?) and so on. Which is a magnification of this distortion.

[Mephisto of the FoS]

I agree but now what about XPs gained from fighting level draining adversaries should these be affected too?

[Isolde]

Things can stay the same. The combat capacity they have and immediate danger they pose to heroes (die, die & become undead, become cursed with a persistent curse that requires a remedy) stays the same or is actually enhanced, though may appear altered.

Some thread relevant extreme cases;
Hilariously if we applied the "Salient Ability" of Vampires of 5 levels of drain per hit to "Vampire Illithids" (worst monster design ever) then it would drain not possibly 8 levels per round (4 tentacles, 2 levels each) but 20 levels per round, so no further comment....

On other extremes; Atropal (3.5e Epic Level Handbook) has a death gaze and an eye ray (ranged touch attack) that bestows 4 negative levels (8 on crit).

[Isolde]

In particular for vampires;
1)only blood drain causes energy drain and is like the new proposed rules
2)being struck by one in combat does not cause energy drain (its not a spectre, it absorbs life force via blood, interacts via flesh)
3)For AD&D 2e and simpler systems
https://www.completecompendium.com/appendix/vampire0/
Before "Strength score of 18/76, receiving a bonus of +2 to hit and +4 to damage." increase to 19
For D&D 3.5 and more complex systems
https://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/vampire.htm
Before "Increase from the base creature as follows: Str +6" Strength increases to 20 or gains +6 if it 20 and over.

Enhance its physical combat capacity, which is why its good at fighting. You can note a period of transformation where its still adjusting and for example Lucy in the film would not have Str 20 when it was slain in its tomb as this may take a month or something.

[Isolde]

Adding a +bonus to hit on its own also makes sense as their senses have increased and they thus can be more precise. So the vampire would become a better fighter (whether he has the class or not) not just by strength and dexterity etc but due to his perception, that has become supernatural. Anything directly on physical combat to balance out the 2 levels drain per slam/fist etc it has in both editions.

"I can hear everything. I hear the servants at the other end of the house, whispering. I hear mice in the attic, stomping like elephants." from Bram Stoker's Dracula 1992

[Mephisto of the FoS]

(For D&D 3.5 and more complex systems)
Before "Increase from the base creature as follows: Str +6" Strength increases to 20 or gains +6 if it 20 and over.
may take a month or something.

I disagree with the automatic 20 Str if you want to make them stronger then apply a better strength bonus.
For instance Merilee Markuza who is already centuries old doesn't have a high Str score and relies to cunning to survive.

Enhance its physical combat capacity, which is why its good at fighting.

Yes

You can note a period of transformation where its still adjusting and for example Lucy in the film would not have Str 20 when it was slain in its tomb as this may take a month or something.

I am also not sure about that. If you apply this to Str then you should apply it to all its powers. Maybe newly created vampires are easier to destroy as they still learn about their powers. For instance in Vampires of the Mists Jander Sunstar teaches Strahd how to use some of his powers. The rule can be that if someone is a vampire spawn or newly created bride or groom the vampire who created them teach them their new powers, or else they have to learn by themselves which takes some time. On the other hand in the String newly created strigoi had all the powers other spawns had, if I remember correctly. Also remember that the newly created Strahd started a killing spree in his Castle when he was attacked by Leo Dilisnya's men and lost Tatyana to the Mists. His newly granted strength helped him overcome his adversaries and kill all survivors left within Castle Ravenloft.

[Isolde]

You can have a gradual adaption and enhancement of all powers (1 to 3 months or moons, depending if they are on their or with their sire), but that is a particular story tool when the heroes have to deal with some newly and just converted to vampire victim. As well customized versions of what powers they gain etc. but the drain itself is the issue.

For incorporeal undead, they can drain (life forces, not levels) the way they do because they are just not physical anymore.

For the corporeal that are not as sneaky and deception-capable or complex power and control-wise as vampires, like the wights "The wight attacks with its jagged claws and powerful blows... In addition to this physical harm, the wight is able to feed on the life essence of its foes. Each blow that the wight lands drains one level from the victim" it can be justified to work with the physical attacks due their natures "wight is hateful and evil, seeking to satisfy its hatred of life by killing all those it encounters" as representing a physical incarnation of the negative in the world that seeks to devour life in an utterly beastly gluttony. It pulsates and emanates the negative, its not like the vampire that can hide and seem refined or even when crude, by vampire standards, controlled. Its more of a crude and gross tear of the negative into the physical.

[Isolde]

For the vampire its an evil spirit that wears the flesh body, it exerts a type of refined control on some things, thus has all those powers. Flesh, and the impure spirit is beneath the "skin."

For the wight its a flesh body that is worn (as in wear down) by the evil spirit, its sort of leaking. It does not control anything, its an urge of evil. Flesh, and the impure spirit has torn through the surface. So it can just drain life force via claw and fist.

Something like that

[Isolde]

Well, Merilee Markuza "she is a vampire but trapped in the body of a young child" is a special case since she was turned during childhood. Its a cool customization.

https://www.fraternityofshadows.com/wik ... kuza_(NPC)

Such npcs are really great as you can create great situations of ambiguity, and deception.

Now i want to watch the film again.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LIm8HfwnmVE
Interview with the Vampire 1994 "Can't i change? Like everybody else!"

The music is great too.
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=P ... 4LgZl_gu7A