The religions of ravenloft

[paireon]

A problem I have with religions in Ravenloft is that ... as is, Ravenloft is too small for so drastically different religions.
What I mean is that we have something the size of Switzerland with several different, drastically different religions. Not Catholics/Protestants but like Hinduists living next to Catholics next to Zoroastrians next to a bunch of Atheists.

Not quite Switzerland; I've done rough calculations based on Joël's map in the Ravenloft Cartographical Society thread and the continental Core (i.e. not counting the seas and their Domains) is about the same land area as the Pacific Northwest -Oregon and Washington State combined. Still a small area, but except for the west central/northwest Core (and even then, to a point) they're much less tied together socioeconomically and culturally than any equivalent area in... let's say Europe. Personally I'm guessing Dark Powers intervention, similar to but weaker than the cultural stasis field enforced by the Immortals on Mystara's Hollow World; it's been implied many times IIRC that the main reason why Falkovnia is still at a medieval CL despite being surrounded by higher CL Domains is due to Drakov's stubbornness, and if he changed his outlook the Domain would quickly catch up to at least Borca and Richemulot.

As for religions, most of them are henotheistic, worshipping one god above the others but not really contesting other gods' existence or enforcing their own's dominance, so tolerating the other religions isn't too hard, save for the Lawgiver, and the two Domains he's worshipped in are rather isolated from the rest of the Core; Lamordian atheism is a great example of Dark Powers intervention as it's all but explicit that it's low-key enforced by them.

Also IIRC the Hinduists and Zoroastrians are from Clusters and Islands, which are even easier to keep culturally isolated due to their actual, physical isolation from the Core and other Clusters/Islands.

Of course, that's just my opinion on the matter.

[alhoon]

Also IIRC the Hinduists and Zoroastrians are from Clusters and Islands, which are even easier to keep culturally isolated due to their actual, physical isolation from the Core and other Clusters/Islands.

Of course, that's just my opinion on the matter.

It was an example.
While and his domain are inspired by Zoroastrianism and Arijani is inspired by Hinduism... the reason I mentioned those two religions was a figure of speech about different religions.

That said, your point that "we revere X but we acknolwedge others" especially with the DP enforcing it sounds plausible. Thank you

[IanFordam]

A problem I have with religions in Ravenloft is that ... as is, Ravenloft is too small for so drastically different religions.
What I mean is that we have something the size of Switzerland with several different, drastically different religions. Not Catholics/Protestants but like Hinduists living next to Catholics next to Zoroastrians next to a bunch of Atheists.

I see that not as a problem but just as a consequence of the patchwork nature of the Land of Mists. To my mind, where the situation gets interesting is where the various religions intersect. For example, consider the attitude of the Church of the Lawgiver towards Ezra or the possibilities in the collision between the faith in Pharazia with the older faith in Sebua and Har'Akir.

[TheArcaneWeirdo]

A theory that just occured to me:
We know The Lawgiver is euphemism for the Forgotten Realms' god Bane.
Guess who is one of Bane's greatest enemies?
Mystra, the goddess of magic!
Mystra... Doesn't it sound a bit like Mytteri?
Now when I think about it it sounds obvious...

[Galeros]

Do we know much about the the Eternal Order? It does not seem to have much info about it out there.

[TheArcaneWeirdo]

Do we know much about the the Eternal Order? It does not seem to have much info about it out there.

Here's what I recal from Gaz 2:
- It worships a variety of death gods copied from numerous pantheons across the multiverse. No examples of said death gods are given, though.
- The creation myth claims that The Grey Realm (as in, the afterlife or the ethereal plane) was created before the living world, and that everyone was dead, until some dude called Darkonos stole life from Death. He became alive for, like, five seconds before Death rekilled him, but life spilled from his blood and scattered across the eath, creating the world as we know it. (I wrote once an analysis of how this myth takes common mythological tropes to their logical extreme to create an 'uncanny valley' feeling, but accidentally erased it.)
- It's generally a very odd religion, because it's motivated solely out of the fear of death. There's no option for a positive connection with the gods. You don't love them for the sake of spirituality, you don't even pray to them so good things will happen - you just beg them over and over again to not kill you and the people you love. There are no tenets or commendants, cause merely being alive is a sin. It feels more like a divine mafia than an actual religion.

[IanFordam]

Do we know much about the the Eternal Order? It does not seem to have much info about it out there.

Here's what I recal from Gaz 2:
- It worships a variety of death gods copied from numerous pantheons across the multiverse. No examples of said death gods are given, though.
- The creation myth claims that The Grey Realm (as in, the afterlife or the ethereal plane) was created before the living world, and that everyone was dead, until some dude called Darkonos stole life from Death. He became alive for, like, five seconds before Death rekilled him, but life spilled from his blood and scattered across the eath, creating the world as we know it. (I wrote once an analysis of how this myth takes common mythological tropes to their logical extreme to create an 'uncanny valley' feeling, but accidentally erased it.)
- It's generally a very odd religion, because it's motivated solely out of the fear of death. There's no option for a positive connection with the gods. You don't love them for the sake of spirituality, you don't even pray to them so good things will happen - you just beg them over and over again to not kill you and the people you love. There are no tenets or commendants, cause merely being alive is a sin.

I'm reminded of Jonathan Edwards' "Sinners in the Hands of an Angry God"... but even more so.

It feels more like a divine mafia than an actual religion.

That's a wonderful line.

[TheArcaneWeirdo]

It feels more like a divine mafia than an actual religion.

That's a wonderful line.

Oh, I have much better ones.

[The Dark]

In 2e, priests of the Eternal Order have major access to All, Astral, Charm, Divination, and reversed Healing and minor access to Guardian, Necromantic, reversed Sun, and Weather. Worship is every four days, and lasts from sunset to midnight. Priests of the Eternal Order in Death Ascendant include a drow devoted to Kiaransalee and a gnome priest of Urdlen.

What the populace think the gods of the Eternal Order do is to keep the dead underground. Azalin's raising of undead armies is attributed to the land itself, and the people petition the gods to keep the dead from rising. It's a scam, but one where there are alleged benefits for the people, even if it's in aversion of disaster rather than granting of benefices.

[The Dark]

I did some thinking about who else besides Kiaransalee and Urdlen would be part of the Eternal Order's pantheon.

The most certain are Greyhawk gods of death, since Darkon was supposed to make Azalin feel at home. Nerull and Wee Jas would be the most appropriate. Kyuss (for undead) and Urogalan (the halfling god of the dead) are also extremely likely. The Olmec have a lot of death gods, with Mictlantecuhtli the most likely and Coatlicue and Chitza-Atlan close behind.

Somewhat less likely are the gods of things tangentially related to death, like Pyremius (murder) and Erythnul (slaughter). Humanoid gods of death like Laogzed (troglodytes) are also thematically appropriate but possibly excluded since troglodytes aren't part of Darkonian society.

The next tier would be gods of death from elsewhere. On Hallowed Ground lists the following other gods of death: Arawn, Chronepsis, Hades, Hel, Kali, Kelemvor, Sehanine Moonbow, Stalker, Surma, Yen-Wang-Yeh, and Yurtrus.
Also likely would be the gods of undeath: Chemosh, Faluzure, Kanchelsis, Mellifleur, and Yeenoghu.
There are also the gods of the dead and/or the underworld: Anubis, Nephythys, Nergal, Osiris, Tuonetar, Tuoni, and Yama.
Finally, (since Urdlen is part of this group), there are the gods of violence/murder/bloodlust: Ares, Cyric, Daragor, Hruggek, Kostchtchie, Malar, Panzuriel, the Queen of Air and Darkness, and Zinzerena.

Of those, the more doubtful are Chronepsis and Faluzure (dragons), Stalker (goblinoids), Yurtrus (orcs), Hruggek (bugbears), Kostchtchie (giants)., Panzuriel (sea creatures), and the Queen of Air and Darkness (fairies). Even a rather severe pruning of that list would still give the Order plenty of deities to choose from.

The ones with good alignment are Anubis, Nephythys, Osiris, and Sehanine Moonbow if good deities would be out of place in your Eternal Order. Neutral on the good-evil axis are Kelemvor, Tuoni (evil tendencies), Yama, Chronepsis, Hades, Urogalan, Wee Jas (evil tendencies), and Yen-Wang-Yeh. Out of the neutrals, I think Kelemvor, Urogalan, and Wee Jas are the most likely to be included.

Taking just fictional evil gods of death, the dead, and undeath that aren't socially unlikely would give us Nerull, Kyuss, Chemosh, Kanchelsis, Mellifleur, and Yeenoghu, on top of Kiaransalee and Urdlen. Allowing real world gods would add Arawn, Hel, Kali, Nergal, Surma, and Tuonetar.

I think my "main cult" Eternal Order would have Chemosh, Kelemvor, Kiaransalee, Kyuss, Nerull, Urdlen, Urogalan, and Wee Jas. The undead of the Kargat would have sub-cults to Kanchelsis, Mellifleur, and Yeenoghu as patrons of vampires, liches, and ghouls respectively. The Queen of Air and Darkness would be added to the pantheon in areas near the Shadow Rift, and Panzuriel in coastal areas. Some elves include Sehanine Moonbow among their version of the pantheon.

[The Dark]

One of my amusements with AD&D 2e is finding ways for dwarves to cast wizard spells, mostly because I find it fun/funny to look for rules loopholes. The Eternal Order might be one of those. The drow and gnome in Death Ascendant have variations on the powers of specialty priests of Kiaransalee and Urdlen from Demihuman Deities. Wee Jas has a specialty priest class in Scarlet Brotherhood, with the granted power being the ability to cast 1st-4th level spells from the schools of alteration, enchantment/charm, illusion, and invocation/evocation as if they were priest spells of the same level. In Ravenloft I'd exchange one of those schools for necromancy because evil.

[TheArcaneWeirdo]

In Ravenloft I'd exchange one of those schools for necromancy because evil.

Off topic but I have a question: Do you think necromancy is necessarily evil?
Like, of course it can be used for evil ends, but so can any magic school. Undead that have to feed on sentient beings are obviously problematic and raising one of those is a danger to the public, but not all of them do.
There's the argument that it's disrespectful towards the dead, but that's a crude generalization - why won't we let each dead person decide what's respectful or disrespectful to them (which necromancy literally lets you do)?

[The Dark]

In Ravenloft I'd exchange one of those schools for necromancy because evil.

Off topic but I have a question: Do you think necromancy is necessarily evil?
Like, of course it can be used for evil ends, but so can any magic school. Undead that have to feed on sentient beings are obviously problematic and raising one of those is a danger to the public, but not all of them do.
There's the argument that it's disrespectful towards the dead, but that's a crude generalization - why won't we let each dead person decide what's respectful or disrespectful to them (which necromancy literally lets you do)?

The metaphysics of 2e Ravenloft thinks most necromancy is evil. Even things like chill touch or feign death call for a mandatory powers check, and using one for a non-evil purpose invokes the same powers check as a non-necromantic spell used for an evil purpose (1% per level of the spell).

[TheArcaneWeirdo]

In Ravenloft I'd exchange one of those schools for necromancy because evil.

Off topic but I have a question: Do you think necromancy is necessarily evil?
Like, of course it can be used for evil ends, but so can any magic school. Undead that have to feed on sentient beings are obviously problematic and raising one of those is a danger to the public, but not all of them do.
There's the argument that it's disrespectful towards the dead, but that's a crude generalization - why won't we let each dead person decide what's respectful or disrespectful to them (which necromancy literally lets you do)?

The metaphysics of 2e Ravenloft thinks most necromancy is evil. Even things like chill touch or feign death call for a mandatory powers check, and using one for a non-evil purpose invokes the same powers check as a non-necromantic spell used for an evil purpose (1% per level of the spell).

So that's the dark powers' opinion. Are they the ultimate judges of morality?
I think that necromancy automatically invoking a powers check is only good for exploring a character going through a path of corruption without being a murder hobo and ruining the fun for everyone else.

[TheArcaneWeirdo]

Off topic but I have a question: Do you think necromancy is necessarily evil?
Like, of course it can be used for evil ends, but so can any magic school. Undead that have to feed on sentient beings are obviously problematic and raising one of those is a danger to the public, but not all of them do.
There's the argument that it's disrespectful towards the dead, but that's a crude generalization - why won't we let each dead person decide what's respectful or disrespectful to them (which necromancy literally lets you do)?

The metaphysics of 2e Ravenloft thinks most necromancy is evil. Even things like chill touch or feign death call for a mandatory powers check, and using one for a non-evil purpose invokes the same powers check as a non-necromantic spell used for an evil purpose (1% per level of the spell).

So that's the dark powers' opinion. Are they the ultimate judges of morality?
I think that necromancy automatically invoking a powers check is only good for exploring a character going through a path of corruption without being a murder hobo and ruining the fun for everyone else.

Now I have an idea for a character that became a darklord through a series of the stupidest examples on the powers check table. Stuff like 'carrying an evil item'.