The religions of ravenloft

[The Dark]

The metaphysics of 2e Ravenloft thinks most necromancy is evil. Even things like chill touch or feign death call for a mandatory powers check, and using one for a non-evil purpose invokes the same powers check as a non-necromantic spell used for an evil purpose (1% per level of the spell).

So that's the dark powers' opinion. Are they the ultimate judges of morality?
I think that necromancy automatically invoking a powers check is only good for exploring a character going through a path of corruption without being a murder hobo and ruining the fun for everyone else.

Now I have an idea for a character that became a darklord through a series of the stupidest examples on the powers check table. Stuff like 'carrying an evil item'.

Thanks to edition changes, that's not a valid source of a powers check in 2e (unless the item explicitly calls it out). In 2e, powers checks are generated by:
Assault
Betrayal
Extortion
Lying (only to PCs, family, or innocents, and only if it has a negative effect on the person being lied to)
Murder
Theft
Threats of Violence
Torture
Breaking a Tenet*
Breaking an Oath*
Break a Vow*
Defilement*
Desecration*
Laying a Curse
Casting an Evil Spell or using Evil Psionics

*Not if you're a member of an evil faith unless you defile or desecrate your own faith's holy sites.

There are likely still some edge cases where someone could end up corrupted for dumb reasons, but it's harder with this list (the easiest way is probably the spells that require powers checks for no good reason). Even seemingly broad categories like "threats of violence" are hedged by needing to be against a good person or an innocent and having to be intimidating and for the person to have both means and motive - just joking around with someone that "I ought to punch you for saying that" isn't going to provoke a powers check in 2e, even though "threats of violence" is on the list. Saying "that dress looks fine" when you think it's ugly is also almost certainly not going to provoke a powers check even though it's lying. There's more of a need to really mean it in 2e as compared to some of the later lists.

[TheArcaneWeirdo]

The Divinity of Mankind is interesting, because it asks a very important question:
What's the place of humanism in a world where humans aren't the only people?

In our world, humanism is a very reasonable ideology. The fact we're human is a common denominator that can unite people across cultures, genders, races, states and religions - and as messed up as we can be sometimes, I think there's enough to like about us.
But focusing only on ourselves, reducing the world solely to the human experience, blinds us both to nature and to the possibility of the supernatural! It's extremely limiting, in my humble opinion. Humans are awesome, yeah, but we can acknowledge that without demeaning other creatures.
I'm not sure what most humanists think of the matter. I have to admit even I don't consider animals fully equal to humans.
But what if one day aliens showed up?
If they came down from space and talked to us? If suddenly 'humans' were just one species out of a dozen sapient, communicative species in the galactic society?
We'd suddenly have to decide whether by 'humans' we mean the species, 'homo sapience', or the far harder to define concept of 'people'.
The prelude to 'Fantastic Beasts & Where to Find Them' (A 'Harry Potter' supplement detailing the various magical creatures in the fictional universe) describes a historical anecdote demonstrating percisely this dilemma: When the Ministry of Magic started involving magical beings in the legal proceedings relevant to them, they had to determine which are actually human-like enough to be involved, and which aren't. Multiple criterias (humanoid body shape, speech capability etc) were attempted and failed, and eventually the ministry settled on intelligence.
But even that criteria is problematic: Is a human with cognitive disabilities less of a person than an intelligent centaur?
And if we're talking not in mere IQ terms but about some less easily measured mental or spiritual quality, who are we to say that the animals we eat and enslave without a second thought lack this quality?
Even in D&D, where the border between humanoid and monster is strictly defined by mechanics, we choose to blur it over and over again with playable options for orcs, undead, animals and even dragons. As players, we usually don't bother ourselves with the philosophy: Whoever we befriend is our equal, even if they look like a flying jellyfish and communicate via telepathy. Simple as that. But the people making the law - secular or religious - can't afford to be this spontaneous. They have to try and set a hard line.
The Divinity of Mankind chose to say 'yes, we really do only mean homo-sapience. Is this discriminating your species? Well, sucks to be you, I guess.'
Do I agree with that answer?
Absolutely not.
But the fact they try to give one opens room for discussions.

[Tobias Blackburn]

One thing I've wanted to add in is some changes to Hala. Rather than being a straight up god, she's actually an angel of some kind. Pulled into the Mists by a well meaning cleric of the Morning Lord, she quickly found that she could not face off against the powerful beings that ruled the land.

Her phylactery was a book/empty journal, so she started going around and creating small hospices and orders of people to do good in the lands. In each place she would tear a page out of her phylactery and leave it there to both bless the site. It also turned out that, if someone signed one of these pages they would tap into her power and becomes witches (celestial warlocks mechanically).

I haven't decided what happened to her exactly. She is probably extremely reduced in power (to an aasimat or even just a fully normal human) and acting as a normal healer somewhere. Meanwhile, belief in her has reached a point where the Mists provide power to clerics who worship her.

The destruction of her hospices and other places of worship are being arranged by the Gentleman Caller to steal the pages of her phylactery for various reasons. Needless to say, it would be very, very bad for both Hala (wherever she is) and the families who signed those pages.

[The Dark]

I don't know if this will make me the odd one out or if it's a common opinion I just haven't heard elsewhere, but I'm not a fan of Hala, at least as far as the effort to shoehorn all the witches and warlocks into her worship. I like a little more mystery and uncertainty about where witchcraft powers come from (honestly I prefer a "messy" Ravenloft in general that's less predictable for players and easier to shoehorn homebrew into). Hala worshipers as a persecuted secret good cabal of spellcasters is OK, I guess, I just don't like some of the implications that all (or at least almost all) witches and warlocks are her devotees. It actually works great in Old Tepest, where a cult of witches trying to help people without coming to the attention of the Inquisition makes sense. It feels a little more awkward in Lamordia or Kalidnay.

[Tobias Blackburn]

I don't know if this will make me the odd one out or if it's a common opinion I just haven't heard elsewhere, but I'm not a fan of Hala, at least as far as the effort to shoehorn all the witches and warlocks into her worship. I like a little more mystery and uncertainty about where witchcraft powers come from (honestly I prefer a "messy" Ravenloft in general that's less predictable for players and easier to shoehorn homebrew into). Hala worshipers as a persecuted secret good cabal of spellcasters is OK, I guess, I just don't like some of the implications that all (or at least almost all) witches and warlocks are her devotees. It actually works great in Old Tepest, where a cult of witches trying to help people without coming to the attention of the Inquisition makes sense. It feels a little more awkward in Lamordia or Kalidnay.

I get that. Hala started as just a church where Van Richten was recovering from something, but then got reused as more of her healing churches got hit by monster attacks. When they released the Guide to Hags, they introduced the idea of witches and warlocks of Hala, which were a very, very different kind of spellcaster. I feel it makes a bit more sense when you take the 2e information into account. Also, her faith was not wide spread and didn't proselytize - usually limiting themselves to small hospices to provide healing instead. So you may see one as a clinic in backwoods Lamordia, but places outside the core like Kalidnay would have been non-existent or extremely extremely rare.

[The Dark]

I don't know if this will make me the odd one out or if it's a common opinion I just haven't heard elsewhere, but I'm not a fan of Hala, at least as far as the effort to shoehorn all the witches and warlocks into her worship. I like a little more mystery and uncertainty about where witchcraft powers come from (honestly I prefer a "messy" Ravenloft in general that's less predictable for players and easier to shoehorn homebrew into). Hala worshipers as a persecuted secret good cabal of spellcasters is OK, I guess, I just don't like some of the implications that all (or at least almost all) witches and warlocks are her devotees. It actually works great in Old Tepest, where a cult of witches trying to help people without coming to the attention of the Inquisition makes sense. It feels a little more awkward in Lamordia or Kalidnay.

I get that. Hala started as just a church where Van Richten was recovering from something, but then got reused as more of her healing churches got hit by monster attacks. When they released the Guide to Hags, they introduced the idea of witches and warlocks of Hala, which were a very, very different kind of spellcaster. I feel it makes a bit more sense when you take the 2e information into account. Also, her faith was not wide spread and didn't proselytize - usually limiting themselves to small hospices to provide healing instead. So you may see one as a clinic in backwoods Lamordia, but places outside the core like Kalidnay would have been non-existent or extremely extremely rare.

Yeah, I was the one who wrote last year about other 2e classes that should qualify to be witches. I don't mind that there are witches and warlocks of Hala, I just have my headcanon include other witches and warlocks as well. My justification is that the Halan witches are just the ones RvR knows about because of his association with them.

I started looking at them when a thread on The Piazza asked for opinions about whether the doubled XP was worth it for their spellcasting (my opinion was definitely for thieves, maybe for fighters), and after I read the kit description a few times I started poking into what other classes qualified. I've got a few NPCs I've been working on with the kit, to work out what their options actually are based on whether they're a witch or warlock and whether they have a coven or not, since all of those affect what spells they have access to. One thing that project made me realize is that they don't use the Maximum Spells Known or Percent to Know Spell from the Intelligence table, so they can learn whatever "the Weave" (the DM) lets them learn.

[Tobias Blackburn]

How they got their spells was one of my favourite parts about the kit. Very unique, and it seemed to work quite well. It would be a cool addition for how a sorcerer "learns" their spells (using the method to focus their mind on the magic) or for a patron to teach a spell to their warlock.

[Isolde]

i use the pre-existing evil deities from the settings and do not use the ravenloft mess of religions which are a mix grill of faerun, krynn, celtic, artificial pseudo-religions, egyptian, ancestor collectives, hindu, and other stuff.

Most in ravenloft are Celtic, then its from Faerun, then its pseudo-religions, then Egypt and then the rest.

I do not use the dark powers, these are just evil deities. At best it can be the idea of evil acting upon things, but its still an entity, a specific noetic entity.

These work just fine for the evil deity role; Malar of Faerun posing as two deities, Bhaal of Faerun, Lolth of Faerun, Bane of Faerun

Any that may fit from other settings if the heroes come from a setting that is not Forgotten Realms.

Never vecna, i don't like him. Kali the black mother is good and the evil one is Raktabija and so on.

[TheArcaneWeirdo]

i use the pre-existing evil deities from the settings and do not use the ravenloft mess of religions which are a mix grill of faerun, krynn, celtic, artificial pseudo-religions, egyptian, ancestor collectives, hindu, and other stuff.

But the interesting part is how societies in a different plane interpret this mix grill!
Even without the DP messimg around, it makes perfect sense that after a century or two of isolation, fact would fade into myth and people would evolve different interpretations of the religion they once had!
Like, yeah, The Lawgiver evolved from Bane - but once he wasn't around to punish and reward, people had to rationalize his worship as sanctifying law and order rather than conquest for the sake of conquest! Isn't this fascinating?

[Isolde]

It breaks immersion and distorts the gothic horror frame as it changes all the time. We already have a base setting, usually, from which the heroes originate. If we take them to another and then each domain or almost each has other deities and there are the deities of the originated setting that fit an aesthetic and then we have a different set of ravenloft specific per adventure it creates salad that does not help digest or assimilate into the gothic horror of the thing.

Malar works, and the heroes would go deeper and deeper in lore regarding him for example. If we have a different malar variant deity per domain or whatever then it becomes a fleeting pseudo-diverse experience that has no staying power and no foundation whatsoever. Fast food adventure framing elements.

[TheArcaneWeirdo]

It breaks immersion and distorts the gothic horror frame as it changes all the time. We already have a base setting, usually, from which the heroes originate. If we take them to another and then each domain or almost each has other deities and there are the deities of the originated setting that fit an aesthetic and then we have a different set of ravenloft specific per adventure it creates salad that does not help digest or assimilate into the gothic horror of the thing.

Malar works, and the heroes would go deeper and deeper in lore regarding him for example. If we have a different malar variant deity per domain or whatever then it becomes a fleeting pseudo-diverse experience that has no staying power and no foundation whatsoever. Fast food adventure framing elements.

Oh!
I think what we're onto is a difference in adventure style:
You run mostly 'Weekend In Hell' adventures, where the heroes are taken by the mists from another homeworld to complete a certain quest, right?
If that's what you do, the gods from the players' homeworld are really all you need.

But if, like many many people, you run campaigns with native Ravenloftian characters, you need the local religions - cause that's part of the flavour that makes your character feel native.

Also, a lot of religions span across domains. Ezra is worshipped in Mordent, Borca, Dementlieu, Richemulout (I can never spell that one...) and Darkon. The Lawgiver is worshipped in both Nova Vassa and Hazlan - and might spread to the Sea of Sorrows through colonialism. The Eternal Order and The Overseer are unique to Darkon, but that's a huge domain. Most of those religions also don't have a whole new pantheon but one or two deities.

Also, I don't think the shift between different religions necessarily ruins the atmosphere. It can make it just as easily, if you build on the anxiety of encountering a new culture with different values that sometimes, no matter how pluralistic you try to be, just feel plain wrong even though everyone here seems to agree with them.

[TheArcaneWeirdo]

One of my favourite OCs, for example, is a Mordentish 'banshee' caliban who was raised by the church of Ezra. Throughout her youth, she had this contrast between an extremely religious upbringing and being considered an abomination onto most gods. Her anchor throughout this was a line from the Second Book of Ezra (I found it in Mistipedia - I think it's originally from the Book of Secrets netbook) about how even the Legioneers of the Night can be redeemed. She grew up to be a paladin, fairly confident with her religious situation but still struggling with intrusive thoughts about it: She knows she's right, but what if Ezra disagrees?
The big point is that even if Ezra thought my character was an irredeemable monster, I think she'd be willing to listen to her counterarguments - cause she knows that like she called out the Mists of Death for creating a terrible world, everyone has a right to occasionally protest against their god.

Now, could a similar story be told with a Forgotten Realms religion and a tiefling? Probably. But that's like saying Eragon isn't worth reading cause its plot is similar to Star Wars'. The same trope can be told in a thousand different ways - what makes the story good is the way it's executed, the nuance, the little details.
And this character's little details grew out of very specific Ezra lore.

[IanFordam]

We already have a base setting, usually, from which the heroes originate.

In my case, that would be Ravenloft. I downplay elements which connect to other settings because I don't find those settings nearly as engaging. I prefer to try to reconcile the in-game and out-of-game patchwork nature of the Land of Mists. But that's just my preference.

[The Dark]

We already have a base setting, usually, from which the heroes originate.

In my case, that would be Ravenloft. I downplay elements which connect to other settings because I don't find those settings nearly as engaging. I prefer to try to reconcile the in-game and out-of-game patchwork nature of the Land of Mists. But that's just my preference.

I think the expectations also shifted over time. Early 2e had more of a focus on Outsiders entering Ravenloft for a Weekend In Hell adventure, with a lot of the early modules assuming the Darklord would be defeated and the domain disintegrate. That went away over the course of 2e with more expectations of characters originating in Ravenloft, with Domains of Dread adding setting-specific classes and 3e going all-in on making it a setting with continuity. Both WotC versions seem to have returned to the Weekend In Hell concept by making each domain a stand-alone entity (despite VRGtR's nods toward native characters, CoS assumes the players are "from a foreign land").

How various cultures interact, including whether they end up sharing religions, is going to vary depending on how much travel is possible between them. Even at its most cohesive, the Core is large enough to compare to some countries with multiple significant religions, while also being small enough that common religions across the entire place wouldn't be outrageous. Either way is feasible if it meets a DM's needs, and most of the places that call for a unique religion were relegated to Islands pretty quickly (e.g. G'Henna).

[Isolde]

"Weekend In Hell" is too gross a term. Its a subtle shift barely noticeable until the "mists" metaphorically have enveloped the heroes. More of a "slip into this nightgown" with the slip into its silken surface being unnoticed until the "crime occurs" as the transition completes. But its the same setting (oerth, faerun, krynn etc), its not ravenloft as a separate playmat of sots, its a "low astral crease" that they enter that is between the physical and the metaphysical but on the lower end of it.

https://youtu.be/sa3dCZ6saQ8?si=F3fqzlVIc4rjSa11
La gentillesse by Coline Rio