The Scale of Idealism VS Cynicsm in Ravenloft

[TheArcaneWeirdo]

Let's talk about the elephant in the room.
It's there in almost every discussion, and I think it's time to bring it up:
How much hope do you think should be 'allowed' in Ravenloft?
Of course we all are entitled to our opinions and everyone can do whatever they want at their table, but I'm asking what's your take on the subject.


My personal opinion is this:
Ravenloft a setting where heroism has a cost, and that's honestly what I like about it. Your precious PC is more likely to die here than they are on, let's say, Faerun. Even if they survive, there's a high chance they'd be maimed, cursed or traumatised by the end of the campaign.
But, it doesn't mean their fight is futile. They can still save people. They can still nudge the world to a slightly better place. They can still find their moments of joy and comfort between the horrors. Even if they die, they can still pave the road for the next generation of heroes with their sacrifice. Even if they can only hold the darkness at bay for a little while, it still matters. Even if there's no 'happily ever after', there can still be endings that are on the sweeter side of 'bittersweet'.
And honestly, personally I can't imagine running a horror campaign any other way.
Fear only exists when there's hope. If you know for certain things are only going to get worse, it's not fear, it's despair. Fear is about the uncertainty, the unpredictability, that moment when you geniunely have no idea whether you're all gonna die or live happily ever after. If you have nothing to lose, you have nothing to be afraid of.

WDYT?

[doctornecrotic]

The setting seems to agree with you, in which it outright says that the lands of the mists have beauty to fight for and preserve... and then some.
That said, my own stuff tends to lean more "grimdark", especially the Broken Cog and its ToUD prophecy

VIEW CONTENT:

amounting to basically-nuclear-war

.
(Spoilered for the sake of upcoming article). The other domains from my Mystara crossover in Threshold Fanzine were less so, even if some were in rather extreme environments like tundras and deserts. That said, in every case, I tried to balance it out. A recent article proposal is just that, giving characters more things to do in the name of good as well as providing more allies in the fight against evil. I can't go too far grimdark, otherwise it misses the point and becomes the cyclical funhouse dungeon that is the 5e method.

[Baron Von Stanton]

I always err towards idealism concerning Ravenloft and other horror rpg settings. As said, heroism comes with a dear cost in Ravenloft, but, what would be the point of heroism if it didn't? I mean, if we lean towards cynicism, we risk entertaining the question of "Why should we bother?" and that always leads to the Twins, Apathy and Despair.

[Drinnik Shoehorn]

Ravenloft isn’t Call of Cthulhu or World of Darkness. The horror in those comes from the fact you realise you are insignificant in the scheme of things, in CoC, or you are the monster and the horror comes from how you deal with it, in games like Vampire, Mage or Werewolf.

Ravenloft is the world is horrible, bad things are going to happen, but the players are going to stop it. The heroes are going to bring light to the dark.

That’s why the 5e books have missed the point.

Ravenloft isn’t “the artificer has an animate corpse because horror!”, Ravenloft is “the artificer has replaced her leg with a metal one and has a lense for an eye because she fought a ghoul, lost but is still fighting because it’s the right thing to do..”

In Ravenloft, the heroes are the light in the dark. The heroes are the ones bringing hope; whether that’s small scale in saving one small Mordentshire village from a ghost, or large scale stopping the Grand Conjunction.

In Ravenloft, the PCs shouldn’t have horrific subclasses. Your artificer shouldn’t be Dr Frankenstein, they should be Carl in Van Helsing, making the equipment to fight the monsters.

Ravenloft isn’t horror whimsy, which VRGtRavenloft tried to make it, Ravenloft is like the TV series Angel. There is horrific stuff all around you, you will never defeat it all, but you fight back because the fight is what matters.

To answer the question, the world is cynical, but the very existence of the player characters is idealistic.

[Mistmaster]

I go for balance. A light for every darkness.

[Seven]

>How much hope do you think should be 'allowed' in Ravenloft?

-ahem-

"Ravenloft is a beautiful land. The forests are lush and gorgeous. The sky is a brilliant, unspoiled blue. The mountains are awe inspiring in their simple majesty. The rivers are clean and refreshing, and the air is crisp and sweet. Ravenloft is a land worth living in. It is a land worth fighting for. Don't surrender it to the night."

- Ravenloft Campaign Setting (3e)

I ran my Ravenloft campaigns as Dark, but not Grim. The night may be dark and full of terrors, but the sun always rises.

The late 2e and 3e books mention repeatedly that horror "works best" when it interrupts normal life, and that means that a "normal life" has to actually be possible

"The world of Ravenloft is much like our own, at least in the basic ways. People awaken in the morning, work for their wage, return home to be with their families and enjoy some diversions, sleep soundly during the night and awaken again the next morning. Despite appearances, it is not a world overwhelmed by countless horrors. The horrors exist, but the average persons are unaffected by them. If they were, they would hardly be considered as horrifying. It is the relative normality of daily life in Ravenloft that makes the abnormal seem so terrifying, and the desire to return to normality often provides heroes with motivation to fight the darkness."

I had player-characters have lives, hobbies, friends, relationships, families and more outside of kicking monster ass. The PC's had reasons to fight.

What reasons do PC's have to fight in 5e!Loft? \

[Strahdsbuddy]

The sun has to come up for anyone to give a darn. Domains like Cavitius missed this point and that's why they always felt out of place to me. A domain like Nosos is horrifying BECAUSE the natural world is being destroyed in real time. There has to be goodness for Gothic evil to make sense. The personal nature of horror requires one fleshed out vampire instead of an army of them. This is why Dracula and I Am Legend feel like different genres: they are. Going full Grimdark will quickly have players trying to escape instead of fix things. That's why I'm always amazed when I see the original authors say it was designed to be weekend in hell; give your players a chance to enjoy victory before riding off into the Mists. It will make it that much more poignant when the next threat arises.

[TheArcaneWeirdo]

Ravenloft isn’t Call of Cthulhu or World of Darkness. The horror in those comes from the fact you realise you are insignificant in the scheme of things, in CoC, or you are the monster and the horror comes from how you deal with it, in games like Vampire, Mage or Werewolf.

Ravenloft is the world is horrible, bad things are going to happen, but the players are going to stop it. The heroes are going to bring light to the dark.

That’s why the 5e books have missed the point.

Ravenloft isn’t “the artificer has an animate corpse because horror!”, Ravenloft is “the artificer has replaced her leg with a metal one and has a lense for an eye because she fought a ghoul, lost but is still fighting because it’s the right thing to do..”

In Ravenloft, the heroes are the light in the dark. The heroes are the ones bringing hope; whether that’s small scale in saving one small Mordentshire village from a ghost, or large scale stopping the Grand Conjunction.

In Ravenloft, the PCs shouldn’t have horrific subclasses. Your artificer shouldn’t be Dr Frankenstein, they should be Carl in Van Helsing, making the equipment to fight the monsters.

Ravenloft isn’t horror whimsy, which VRGtRavenloft tried to make it, Ravenloft is like the TV series Angel. There is horrific stuff all around you, you will never defeat it all, but you fight back because the fight is what matters.

To answer the question, the world is cynical, but the very existence of the player characters is idealistic.

I don't think spooky character options necessarily ruin that.
For example, a few weeks ago I LARPed as an Oathbreaker paladin going through a redemption arc after decades in the service of the BBEG. Their powers included stuff like 'aura of fear' or 'control undead'. They looked nearly undead themself. But they weren't a villain protagonist or anything. They were a very depressed character, desperate to repent for their sins, perfectly willing to sacrifice their life to save the world, mostly because they didn't value that life too much - and had to relearn before the final battle how to enjoy that life again, how to make place for other people in it, how to believe once more they're worthy of it. They ended up surviving, re-swearing their old oath and settling down in the nearby village. It was one of the most wholesome stories I ever got to play, and it only worked because the character started up so dark it had to get lighter.

I get why the reanimator artificer is seen as a taboo violation - the mechanics are grim even for a necromancy subclass, and it completely misses every opportunity to create connections with the older fleshcrafting/dreadcrafting lore - but I think a good party can create a meaningful, hopeful story even with a character sheet that's anything but.

[Hell_Born]

The sun has to come up for anyone to give a darn. Domains like Cavitius missed this point and that's why they always felt out of place to me. A domain like Nosos is horrifying BECAUSE the natural world is being destroyed in real time. There has to be goodness for Gothic evil to make sense. The personal nature of horror requires one fleshed out vampire instead of an army of them. This is why Dracula and I Am Legend feel like different genres: they are. Going full Grimdark will quickly have players trying to escape instead of fix things. That's why I'm always amazed when I see the original authors say it was designed to be weekend in hell; give your players a chance to enjoy victory before riding off into the Mists. It will make it that much more poignant when the next threat arises.

Even in AD&D some of the better Ravenloft adventures were those that let you have an actual positive effect on the world. Castles Forlorn gave you the genuine chance to save Tristan ApBlanc's daughter and bring her to the present. The Cat of Felkovic canonically was supposed to end with the party using the titular magical artifact to permanently slay Baron Urik von Kharkov, releasing Valachan back to the Forgotten Realms and letting Felkovic's soul rest in peace, which transformed his Cat into a non-cursed Figurine of Wonderous Power.