Azalin undead dominion vs Death's child

[Rotipher of the FoS]

i don't know, S asked Azalin the same question about the halfling wererat bandit, to which Azalin replied " A child forever coddled by its father never grows up." Azalin may just not feel its worth his bother to control the ghoul packs - not when they serve as a convienient way to test his minions or draw heroic-type people out into the open.

Actually, what I was thinking is that it's something he'd do to advertise his renewed dominion over Darkon, not because he could care less about a few wayward hungry dead. An awful lot of Darkon's inhabitants are likely to have their doubts about their wizard-king's return -- there are loads of pretenders to the throne out there, whom they could suspect of impersonating him -- or to question whether he's as powerful as he once was. While Azalin never DID profess to control the likes of the halfling bandit, he certainly benefits from his reputation for having influence over the dead his subjects fear so much! So even if he sees no value in protecting people per se, showing the populace that he's still capable of keeping the dreaded undead from their throats will do a lot to re-establish his credibility as their ruler, and in a far more efficient manner than (for example) modifying the memories of everyone in Darkon, so they'll forget they ever doubted him.

[Mortavius]

I would stick with the rules on this. Azalin is supreme in his domain. If an undead creature enters his domain, whether it's a Death's Child or not, Azalin *could* control it. However, I also feel that Azalin must devote his attention to this. He can spend some time, and discover all the undead in his domain, but it takes awhile. Why should he? Until an undead creature warrants his attention, he's content enough to leave it alone or until he needs to use one. So, a Death's Child can enter Darkon, and as long as it keeps a low profile, it stands a decent chance of going undetected.
I don't care for the idea of Death's Child turning undead into Negative Energy Elementals; this alters the type of the creature as well as it's base stats, and creates a lot more paperwork than normal.
I figure that Azalin can control the undead creature, but Death still retains his ability to kill it at anytime. This means that normally, if control is wrested away from Death by Azalin, then Death just kills the creature. Kind of like a spy getting captured and taking a cyanide pill to avoid interrogation.

[Ryan Naylor]

In my expert opinion (well, it's my fault the rules are unclear):

Azalin can control Death's minions when they're in Darkon if he knows they're there and is concentrating on controlling them. If he isn't, they can be controlled by Death.

And that's the semi-official response. Feel free to apply for a less terse response if needed.

[alhoon]

My opinion:

- Death and Azalin make a charisma roll whenever they try to give contradicting orders to an undead.

- Azalin must know of the undead he tries to control and the "Unholy order" is a secret society.

- Azalin won't know of every vampire that Death sends over or every ghoul spy.

To Coan
If he is informed, he can try to control a Death's child and death can kill it if it is to betray something important. Or Death can plant false clues and let this undead get caught and interogated (Remember, Azalin can read their memories).
So it is something like an excersise in futility unless Azalin spends much time and effort on the task.

So there is a reason for 1. secrecy for the Unholy Order 2. caution on Azalin's side even if Azalin can control them.

So there is a point in Azalin being able to control Undead even if they are Death's children.

But death can't send an army of undead over Darkon. He can't send 10 - 15 Death's children to capture 100 humans bring them to Darkon so he can use them to fuel MORE death's children and send an army of Death's children to Darkon.

Even the Horsemen were destroyed.

[Coan]

Going with the 'Azalin needs to know about them'.

Azalin can and likely would send a Kargat team to patrol the border of Necropolis. As soon as an undead creature passes the border word is sent to Azalin through instantaneous magic, who then takes over the undead, reads and alters what memories he sees fit and lets it go. There is no limit to the number of undead he can control and no where the undead can hide thanks to the fields that surround the city.

Therefore there is no Darkon/Necropolis conflict if this occurs. So a DM wouldn't have the Kargat team watching but then you have a plot hole. Why would Azalin leave such an obvious source of trouble unobserved? Perhaps he doesn't scan the undead (which would obviously be reported to him) because he has better things to do. But then why bother with the question of if he could control them as he obviously cannot be bothered. But if he cannot be bothered, what is he doing that is so important? And if it is so important then why would he ever control an undead or read people's memories when perhaps the greatest threat to his kingdom (Death a being with the third largest Knowledge: Ravenloft in the Core and perhaps the greatest knowledge of Azalin himself) and his henchmen are left unchecked?

A question asked makes a plot hole which in turn makes more. An interesting dilemma. But that is up to you to decide. If you wanted to simplify: If Azalin wouldn't monitor Death would he monitor anyone? When Death seems to be one of the greatest threats (greater than Strahd depending on your view).

Charisma checks? I see no point. Who would ever know -save the DM. Is a DM going to leave such an important behind the scenes story development in the hands of a dice roll who no one will ever see?

There is a problem with rules like these and that is they serve no game purpose. No player will ever see these rolls so why make them? Just go with what makes the plot and game better.

[alhoon]

About the Kargat patrol: Yes, that's right. Azalin would probably monitor the Necropolis not only with a few Kargat agents but also with the King's crows etc.
But:

He wouldn't know if the memories of the undead he gets are true. Example:

A ghoul steps away from the Shroud. 3 minutes later it is under Azalin's control and Azalin's scans its memory.
He finds: That the Ebon Fold is gathering in Martira Bay to destabilize the city. Now there are two possibilities for Azalin:

1. The memories are true. The ghoul learned something somewhere.

2. The memories are false, Somebody lied to the ghoul on purpose to lead Azalin astray. A red Herring by Death to send the Kargat looking in Martira Bay when his spies are active elsewhere.

In case 1. Why did Death left the ghoul while he could kill it instantly when he sensed that his control was broken?


Also: Even and especially if Azalin cannot control the Death's children, then he would monitor the borders with the Necropolis and have an Army of controled undead (he can raise whole graveyards) pound to the mud every undead reported to leave Necropolis.
No need for him to worry. Just a note to his officers there and a few thousand skeletons surounding Il Aluk. If a crow sees an undead leaving Necropolis, they attack.
About the 5-6 thousand skeletons: Even the victims with the wars with Falkovia, are enough to do this. And if Death moves an undead army out (not an elite "Death Children" force) he can add them to his ranks.

So Anyway, if you have undead leaving Necropolis, it would be with magic or some trick or it is a plot hole. A Death's child in Darkon would have to pass under Azalin's nose.

So why should Death's children be immune to Azalin's control to be a plot device? Since if Azalin knew about them, they would be ash when they left Necropolis.
Also remember the Horsemen? Azalin destroyed them without any special effort as we are inclined to believe, not in some climatic battle.

[Coan]

But why doesn't Azalin keep an army outside anyway? Probably because it is taxing to have that many undead controlled at one time and that unintelligent undead aren't that great at following orders not directly given.

I wouldn't rely on the horsemen example. There is nothing that says Azalin destroyed them without effort. You'll also likely note that nowhere does it say he controlled them and read their memories to use that information against Death. Instead he simply destroyed them, any exact information is made up by the DM.

False memories work fine on a one to one scale but eventually someone who knows something true is going to get caught. If the Death's Child cannot be scan/controlled by Azalin then Death can send out sleeper agents that might actually work instead of sleeper agents that would always fail.

Also of note is that a Death's child has no limit between it and Death for control and contact. Azalin on the other hand cannot control undead outside Darkon's borders and false memories fade away. So Death's Children are better controlled.

Edit: This method is on the edge of beating the rules of 'Darklord in home domain always wins' unless:
1) Death's Children aren't common in your campaign (i.e. don't have an army of them)
2) You perhaps think of it as an extension of Azalin's curse that he forced upon himself when he created Death. Azalin cannot read the minds of Death's Children because it would give him new knowledge -knowledge that is now forbiddon to him if it comes from Death's Children. The mere fact he would know they are just of out reach of his control would anger and torment him no end in the land where he is almost a god.

[Igor the Henchman]

Bottom line: decide either way depending on what you want for your campaign. I would personally go with the charisme check approach - although as DM, I could simply "decide" who won the check - my opinion is that if it doesn't affect PCs, the dice are completely subjective.

What I'd like to note, however, is that, from reading Gazetteer II, it doesn't appear to me that Azalin is so much worried over Death and its minions, as if it were something he could easily contain if he wished. Make what you want out of this impression - after all, Azalin can lie.

[Charney]

I prefer that Azalin isn't THAT omnipotent. Death Child undead are more resistant to his control, at least intelligent undead. In fact, I prefer if more powerful undead can at least get a will save to resist his control. That way, if I ever have undead PCs going into Darkon I won't say: Oh now Azalin controls you, too bad.

[Gemathustra]

Make what you want out of this impression - after all, Azalin can lie.

"Our king? Undead? What a positively preposterous idea... It seems that you've been too generous with that Barovian brandy, my friend."

[Stygian Inquirer]

Make what you want out of this impression - after all, Azalin can lie.

"Our king? Undead? What a positively preposterous idea... It seems that you've been too generous with that Barovian brandy, my friend."

I prefer the blood of ignorant Darkonians, myself.

[alhoon]

Edit: This method is on the edge of beating the rules of 'Darklord in home domain always wins' unless:
1) Death's Children aren't common in your campaign (i.e. don't have an army of them)
2) You perhaps think of it as an extension of Azalin's curse that he forced upon himself when he created Death. Azalin cannot read the minds of Death's Children because it would give him new knowledge -knowledge that is now forbiddon to him if it comes from Death's Children. The mere fact he would know they are just of out reach of his control would anger and torment him no end in the land where he is almost a god.

Hmm. Interesting. IMC there is certainly no army of Death's children. A whole lot, yes, but not an army. They are agents hiding in Darkon and other domains.
That Azalin has some chance of controling Death's children IMC doesn't mean that he knows of all of them. As the Gaz II proposed, small groups would escape his notice.

Fear of Azalin makes the Unholy Order of the Grave to keep a low profile. So, since it suits my campaign, I use it that way.