What to do about WotC's bombshell?

[kourkenko]

hi everibody,
Personally, I have checked this forum for a long time, eventually since the kargatan web site is closedce. (to write into english is true torture for me, but seeing waht is happening, i want to give my opinion.
I will change for the forth edition as for the simple and good reason that if you want Ravenloft to survive, you won' t have the choice. how would you bring some new players with an antique edition? how interest young player, whom will ensure the survive of the ravenloft's world, with an old edition and having less and less player?
Taking part of an assiossiation, change for the forth edition is essential, as I see the teams which refuse to adapt themselves to change, to have less and less players, there are less and less games are played each years, then, finally, the games and sometimes the groups disapeared, or the players start others games.
Ravenloft is my pefered world, so I don't want to see it pass in the trap.
adapt ourselves as for us not to disapear...

[HuManBing]

What new players? What younger generation?

I just started a gaming group of people who are all older than me (and I'm the DM - at age 27!) and they had no experience with v3.5. I had to update them from 2nd edition. I can count the number of people I know who play DnD and who are younger than me on one finger, and that's my friend Elliott20 (on this message board) and that's because I introduced him back in 1994 to the game.

I have a large collection of books for 3.5 which I started building up since about February this year. It is hard to take the news that they will be obsolete in just over a year with equanimity. I'm beginning to think even getting familiar with 3rd edition was a waste of my time and more importantly my money.

I have little patience for those who say "Wizards is a business" and who then go on to justify their decisions under that aegis. They dropped Ravenloft, then sold it, then dropped it again. They pursued a hideously inefficient miniatures sales model, where the buyer has to collect it rather than doing as Reaper and others do and giving us control over what we buy. They are now announcing some new edition with fantastic new rules even as they continue releasing more products in the interim.

Yes this makes business sense, but tell me how this benefits us, the gamers.

I have a cousin who, in addition to being a brilliant mathematician and economist, also is a gamer. (And before you ask, he's older than me.) He only plays using dead systems. At first I used to think this was just his characteristic quirks at work. Now I start to realize this is actually quite a savvy maneuver. If you start with a dead system to begin with, you cannot be made obsolete.

I have already cancelled my 3.5 preorders and I am going to hunker down with what I have and damn the rest. This website and its support for Ravenloft was the reason why I even bothered to try to get to grips with Third Edition and ended up buying into the system. I don't have the resources or the temperament to shell out for whatever Wizards thinks I should be buying just because their accountants need some cash to fill the coffers following "sound business decisions" like Transformers and Wrath of the Dragon God.

If this site doesn't support 3.5 rules in future, I will go elsewhere. This is not a threat. It's just good business.

[alhoon]

I see 4th edition as a good thing. After all, the 3rd edition has been overexpanded.

I believe it is not another "attack of opportunity" on our wallets by an evil company that wants to bleed us dry and let our children starve. It a move anticipated and expected from a company with more gamers than us in its mind.

Don't be egoists, we are not the only gamers out there. There is new blood and there will be future generations. 4th edition will probably go from 2008 to 2015.
A child that is now 11 years old won't have to buy again tones of books because it will never get them in the first place. He or she will start playing probably around 2010 or so and 4th edition will be his or hers first encounter with D&D.
A child that is now an infant, will probably start playing 5th edition. It is the way things are.
Joel's grandchildren will play Ravenloft 6th edition.

Another thing: 3rd edition is now complete. You have all the books you'll probably ever need. You can keep playing 3rd edition and enjoy it and 3rd edition books will probably be on sale for years to come. So you could comfortably sit back and enjoy the large libraries you have built with 3rd edition supplements, playing with your friends, having a good time. 3rd edition is far more solid than 2nd edition and you could play it forever without having to spend another cent on books.

Also for Cole-types, the 4th edition will be closer to 1st edition I think. No gnomes, skills that you either have or not, etc.

[Joël of the FoS]

I will change for the forth edition as for the simple and good reason that if you want Ravenloft to survive, you won' t have the choice. how would you bring some new players with an antique edition? how interest young player, whom will ensure the survive of the ravenloft's world, with an old edition and having less and less player?

That is what I think too. IMHO, we'll have to support both 3.5 and 4.0 after a time (maybe not at the second the new books are out, but soon after), if we want to remain competitive in the online D&D universes. Otherwise, RL could join the truly dead settings an extremely tiny fraction still remember, and even less play with.

However, 3.5 still should get our main attention until a new RL 4.0 is out, if ever, or perhaps after 3-5 years of 4.0.

We will also have to update all 3.5 stuff to 4.0 too. Just updating the mechanics was allowed from 2 to 3.0, so we should be able to do it again this time. Lots of work coming soon, friends!

This said without knowledge of 4.0 - perhaps it will make unanimity quickly, and the change will be easy, we'll see.

Joël

[NeoTiamat]

I second Alhoon and Joel's points.

Fact is, Ravenloft is at the moment probably the liveliest of the 'dead' settings. We're putting out large, elaborate, and I would say highly professional works in the form of the Gazetteers (and soon, the VRS), with an active online community and a *score* of smaller personal projects roaming around. We have the actual developers of much of the setting posting on the forums, and how many settings can say that much? If we get stuck in the past, will that continue?

The other thing is, at least in Ravenloft the physical rules are at best only a small portion of the books. Looking through the Gazetteers, what's the stuff everyone wants to know about? Dread Possibilities, Darklord Backgrounds, the nuts and bolts of the domain (economy, social classes, history). Where do the rules actually come into play? Pretty much only in the NPC write-ups. How much effort do you think it would take to restat the grand total of FIVE characters in the Souragnien Gazetteer? (Note that I'm speaking only of what the FoS can do.)

What I'm attempting to say, is that the actual edition is only a small part of what makes Ravenloft the setting it is. Ravenloft is the society, the culture, the world of the Demiplane of Dread. It's a mindset. We cater to that mindset. What rules the players use is really one of the less important things, at least to the essence that is Ravenloft.

So don't get to wrapped up in whether or not Ravenloft should switch or stay or saying that you'll leave or what not.

(Did that make any sense at all?)

[Guardian of Twilight]

Let us all wait and see what the future holds, dear friends. If the future of gaming in indeed 4E and the rules are indeed good enough, then yes, let us switch over. However, if things are too rough and abrupt, then let us stay with what works.

[kourkenko]

I agree.
To be alive, Ravenloft must be competitive. I don't say to switch directly but we must try the 4th edition, see the game and, the most important thing, see how much new blood come.
To be honest, i m one of the oldest gamer in my city and i'm only 32. And when i see new blood, i always ask "Do you want to test this game ?"
None of them know ravenloft at this moment, but after... They never forget Strahd

For me, i'll be easy to switch, because i don't know the rules of the 3rd lol, i'd stop to read them after the 2nd edition ^^. Only the fluff interest me, my players know the rules... It's boring to read them so i let my players do it ^^

We must live with our time. So, we must adapt ourselfs or we'll finish like any other dead setting...

[Pamela]

However, 3.5 still should get our main attention until a new RL 4.0 is out, if ever, or perhaps after 3-5 years of 4.0.

We will also have to update all 3.5 stuff to 4.0 too. Just updating the mechanics was allowed from 2 to 3.0, so we should be able to do it again this time. Lots of work coming soon, friends!

This said without knowledge of 4.0 - perhaps it will make unanimity quickly, and the change will be easy, we'll see.

If the Cafe waits that long to convert to 4e, it's cutting its own throat. But I understand having books with both systems available. For a while. I don't envy you guys the work however...

[HuManBing]

I don't dispute that updates are sometimes necessary. But I do take issue with some of you who are implying (however clumsily) that I am an egoist or that I don't think of any other gamers.

I suppose my point is "don't forget about me". Where "me" and the other gamers like me are those who do not have infinitely elastic financial resources to stretch to the latest editions of whatever Wizards wants to release.

It may be terrible. It may be good. (Judging from the talent they've got behind it, I'm willing to hope it will be good - James Wyatt is a good name to have behind it.)

But if this site phases out support of 3.5, it will lose people like me who are familiar with 3.5 and who are unwilling and unable to expand into 4.0.

If you can follow Wizards where they want to take you, then fine. Personally I think you're buying into exactly what they want you to do, but that's just me. However, if Fraternity then excludes the version that I'm familiar with, then it by extension excludes me and my gamers too.

If you can give 3.5 a home here alongside 4.0, then I can live with that. (I've actually wondered why there was no 2nd edition thread for Ravenloft here, given that it was such an influential stage in the campaign setting's development.) It shouldn't be too difficult - just a separate forum thread with 3.5 in the title should be enough, and the fans who want to keep it going there can do so.

Right now I'm uncertain what to do. I've just started a gaming group on 3.5 and it was enough work getting them updated to this edition. I also have a large number of sourcebooks for 3.5 and I'm eager to do adventuring with it.

At the same time I also recognize that Wizards will determine the most current market focus on their own, and in all likelihood take the majority of players with them. That's reasonable, but I need to draw a line in the sand somewhere and just determine what I will be working with as an individual, as DnD is not my job and therefore it vies against bills, work, and study in my list of time and money commitments.

By volume I have (as somebody said) enough 3.5 stuff to last me forever, pretty much, and I don't rely on WotC for any more. Anything I need I could probably houserule. So the only thing that I would lose would be online "current community" of gamers, who would migrate with the new version.

I figure I've been playing some really good games of Ravenloft for a decade before I heard of FoS. Logically speaking, I could continue 3.5 Ravenloft on my own long after FoS ceased to offer anything of use for that version. So that leaves the only actual loss as being a purely sentimental one.

Ay, there's the rub, eh?

[Pamela]

@ HuManBing- I understand your frustration, but don't you think there wasn't just as big a fuss when they did the switch from 2e to 3e? Heck, there were even more books available way back when related to Ravenloft. How many of those fans still receive 2e conversions?

There's nothing to stop you from participating here when the switch to 4e happens here except yourself. You can use the surveys, and all the information relating to the nature of the world. The mechanics...Well, at some point you are going to have to do it yourself, much as the 1e and 2e fans here already are doing.

[Igor the Henchman]

I surmise (and hope) you'll stay with the Frat community for a long time yet, HuManBing, regardless of which edition is supported. Ravenloft is about much more than feats and AoO rules. Otherwise, all our dearly collected 2E books would have been discarded long ago - and they haven't been.

[HuManBing]

@ HuManBing- I understand your frustration, but don't you think there wasn't just as big a fuss when they did the switch from 2e to 3e? Heck, there were even more books available way back when related to Ravenloft. How many of those fans still receive 2e conversions?

You do have a point. To which I offer the (partial, I concede) rebuttal that 2nd edition Ravenloft is still excellent and in many ways I would have preferred that environment, with full TSR support, to continue rather than ever having a 3.5.

The argument of "we have weathered this problem before" is a sound one to make if you want to say that we can survive this problem currently before us. I have no quarrel with that.

However, it has very limited mileage against the argument that "the system is flawed". This is my current feeling and I feel very much like I paid fifty thousand euros to bring Europe's finest choirboy to my cathedral, only for his voice to break after two a cappella performances.

[I apologize for that terribly unwieldy analogy in advance. I'm having difficulty thinking up better ones.]

But I should preserve some semblance of my characteristic graciousness (hah!) and fall silent here because I acknowledge that FoS' function as a public discussion forum has much more to do with the former and almost nothing for the latter, which is reserved for hissing malcontent individuals like myself.

[Jason of the Fraternity]

If you can give 3.5 a home here alongside 4.0, then I can live with that.

As you stated yourself, it wouldn't be too difficult to continue supporting earlier editions (i.e., 2e, 3e, 3.5e). I don't think that we'll be completely converting over to a new system without offering anything for the previous materials.

I've actually wondered why there was no 2nd edition thread for Ravenloft here, given that it was such an influential stage in the campaign setting's development. It shouldn't be too difficult - just a separate forum thread with 3.5 in the title should be enough, and the fans who want to keep it going there can do so.

In this care, I think that Igor already pointed out the biggest reason why we've never created a specific thread/forum for 2nd edition; most of the material has been about more than merely rules. Personally, I don't think that we've really ever needed a specific place to discuss 2nd edition, since it blends in the other editions rather easily (exlcuding the specific rules/mechanics). Besides, nobody ever really asked for such an option to be created in the past.

However, I don't think that it would be too difficult to make certain arrangements if 4th edition is that big of a derivation from the rest of the materials (and there is enough demand for a new and separate forum for the older editions).

But if this site phases out support of 3.5, it will lose people like me who are familiar with 3.5 and who are unwilling and unable to expand into 4.0.

I am doubtful that we'll ever fully stop supporting other editions. The biggest change that 4th edition is likely to bring for us would be the gaming mechanics used within our netzines/netbooks. And, honestly, most of this is based upon our members that contribute to them.

[Rotipher of the FoS]

Easy, gang. This thread's just to hear people's opinions, not argue about them.

Whatever we decide to do about the new edition, HMB, rest assured that the FoS won't be shutting out the 3.5 fans outright. Certainly, I can't imagine we'd ever turn down a decent submission to QtR or the Library, merely because it's written for 3.5 ... or 3.0, 2E, 1E, OD&D, d20 Modern or Call of Cthulhu, for that matter! And if and when we do switch, we'll be open to suggestions on how we can make it as painless as possible for those who don't care to change.

Either way, 99% of what Ravenloft is about hasn't got a darn thing to do with game mechanics, and it's been that way since House on Gryphon Hill was released. Heck, I've been compiling one of the most "crunch"-oriented FoS netbooks yet (VRF:D), and it's still got a lot more descriptive text than "crunch" to it! Ultimately, this site is meant to be about the setting, not the system, and the Dark Powers couldn't care less what die-roll modifiers we're using to simulate their captives' playground.

[cure]

Either way, 99% of what Ravenloft is about hasn't got a darn thing to do with game mechanics, and it's been that way since House on Gryphon Hill was released. Heck, I've been compiling one of the most "crunch"-oriented FoS netbooks yet (VRF:D), and it's still got a lot more descriptive text than "crunch" to it! Ultimately, this site is meant to be about the setting, not the system, and the Dark Powers couldn't care less what die-roll modifiers we're using to simulate their captives' playground.

Which is exactly why I see no point in promoting the uptake, let alone obliging the uptake, of a new game mechanic. And the more so when the cost of playing along with the profit centric strategy is actually a reason to walk away rather than to contribute more.

Which brings us to the difference of interests between us and Wizards. We are interested in retaining in existence and indeed breathing life into a highly thematic space that is shared between us. Wizards is interested in a predictable and growing revenue stream and as such has not the slightest qualm about reinventing Dr. van Ritchen as Conan the Cleric to mention but one act of wilful vandelism in the name of blatant exploitation.

Yes, there is something to be said for keeping us abreast of the rest of the d20 universe. But frankly not at the cost of those who actually give a damn about Ravenloft.

And ultimately we may have to choose. For if Wizards ever does get around to revisiting Ravenloft in detail, I suspect that it will be such a massacre that we will be obliged to denounce it as uncanon and declare our version the canon future of the setting, copyright be damned. At which point things will get very interesting indeed . . . .

Sure, they will own it. But it will be us who care for and about it.