BREAKING NEWS: This just happened! (DMsGuild)

[alhoon]

A lot of "you" in that post and few "I have this underway"...
Anyway, do we have a list of Ravenloft 2e material in already re-released as classics?

Can we use "Replacements"? As in "in the original material, X NPC is said to have a +2 ring of protection, a +1 fast crossbow and a magical chain armor. Since magic items are considered rare, this version of the NPC has him without all those items."
Because frankly, there are tons of "unneeded" magic items in the modules. Nowdays we can simply gloss over them by giving the NPC a few extra hp or a trait like the fighter's fighting style that increases AC, without magic armor.

The worse offenders in my opinion are, of course, the Talons with their thousand swords of wounding and magic bracers.

[Le Noir Faineant]

Yeah, that's absolutely true. If you're a designer, DMGuild is no good. If you're a fan that throws some ideas and want to share them, DMGuild is good.

Fair enough. My problem is, perhaps that I am not the right guy for that more casual approach. In my opinion, if you invest the 50 to 300 working hours into a project that it usually takes to get from an initial idea to a 100-page draft, then it's more to me than "sharing some ideas".

Then again, I can see your point - it's a testing ground, for many. As you might know, I've done extensive fan work for Blackmoor; if we had had an infrastructure even remotely comparable to what DMsG offers, our quasi-professional project would have made a completely different kind of waves. - Like, we were successful in our own way, but one can have 500 followers on Facebook... Or 5000.

DMsGuild is really for new people. People who don't have the reputation. People who are building up to having a website. People who don't have a setting they can publish in.

Yeah, but is it necessarily the best infrastructure? And, FWIW, are there really so many "new people" that are able to write for FR and RL? - Like, the reality is, both settings have been largely sidelined for the last ten years, and whoever might have a vested interest in writing for the DMsG might well be in the hobby for longer than a decade. I have the hardest time believing that people like "that promising 25-year-old ammy writer who got into FR during late 4e"; I think it's a way to bring in fans like us, who have really been treating their content with great sophistication, and make us work for them under their conditions. I resent that, at least somewhat.

There is no new OGL. They're using the old OGL from 2000.

*Lightbulb:* Indeed it is! Not sure what I myself meant with that post, then.

The difference is what we're doing is technically illegal.

Isn't what we do here acceptable in terms of "fair use", even under the very restrictive US copyright law? -The same way that sports teams have unauthorized fan associations, or that independent media talks about things.

We can't even ask for donations to keep the site running. We've been operating at a financial loss for a decade.

Not sure who is your legal counselor, but other fan sites frequently ask for donations, and to no repercussion from WotC. I am happy if you're careful, though.

You retain copyright. The licence doesn't change that.
You just allow anyone else using DMsGuild to use your copyrighted content.

Too much for me, already. For a low-fi project, sure, but I am more of a storyteller/adventure-writer guy. Unless I really wrote something with the premise of it being "open source", this would annoy me, and heavily.

Anyway, all you guys are experienced enough to know what you're doing. I for my part am happy to skip this one; perhaps simply because I have my own sauces cooking, but mostly also because I am not sufficiently emotionally invested in any published setting to work under conditions that I dislike.

I am interested in seeing what others will come up with, though. Hopefully, I am wrong, and you all are right.

[alhoon]

Raf, I have seen a couple FR adventures that seemed promising, and I've bought one.
I also have bought one very nice supplement (100 random urban encounters). I'm very careful with what I buy and so far I have no regrets.

[Jester of the FoS]

DMsGuild is really for new people. People who don't have the reputation. People who are building up to having a website. People who don't have a setting they can publish in.

Yeah, but is it necessarily the best infrastructure?

I'm not sure if there's a better one. WotC could do their own, but they're allergic to directly taking money and their web design in the past has been poor. And the next time they upgraded editions or website, the content would be 90% dead links.
One Book Shelf/Drive-Thru RPG has been around a while and has proven stability. Good place to host the content IMHO.

And, FWIW, are there really so many "new people" that are able to write for FR and RL? - Like, the reality is, both settings have been largely sidelined for the last ten years, and whoever might have a vested interest in writing for the DMsG might well be in the hobby for longer than a decade. I have the hardest time believing that people like "that promising 25-year-old ammy writer who got into FR during late 4e"

In theory, new fans of the Realms are emerging every year through the novels or Adventurer's League.

It's not so much "new" as "unproven" or "previously unpublished".
Or even published people who want to do a side project. The writer of one of the Tyranny of Dragons module did an expansion sidequest for the site.

And content can be setting neutral. The only settings you can use are the Realms and Ravenloft, but any generic gaming content is also valid.

I think it's a way to bring in fans like us, who have really been treating their content with great sophistication, and make us work for them under their conditions. I resent that, at least somewhat.

What's the alternative? Them give us access to their intellectual property under our conditions?
We have no power in the relationship. It's a completely one-sided power structure. They're the producer and we're the consumer.

This is like Disney setting up a YouTube site for Mickey fan films and allowing monetization.

The difference is what we're doing is technically illegal.

Isn't what we do here acceptable in terms of "fair use", even under the very restrictive US copyright law? -The same way that sports teams have unauthorized fan associations, or that independent media talks about things.

Trade mark law has "fair use" for unrelated terms. Like being able to use "apple" pictures and even logo-esque images in ways unrelated to computers. Most D&D terms are specific enough that this is rare.
Copyright fair use applies to reviews, parody, criticisms, etc. While we sometimes review, making fan works and content is not.

Neither applies to us. We have no legal defence.

[alhoon]

As for fansites, haven't they released with D&D next a kit for fansites that gives legal basis?

[Gonzoron of the FoS]

Isn't what we do here acceptable in terms of "fair use", even under the very restrictive US copyright law? -The same way that sports teams have unauthorized fan associations, or that independent media talks about things.

Talking about and reviewing is fine. Producing new content using their IP isn't. We're lucky that so far, they've left us alone, likely for the reasons Jester listed.

You can talk about Star Wars online. You can even probably post a screen capture or short clip of one of the movies, if you're using it to illustrate a discussion about the film, or parodying it as a meme, or sample a line as part of a song. You can't post the whole movie online. You can't (legally) write a new adventure of Luke Skywalker and publish it as a book, or film it as a fan film. You can't write new characters and have them travel to Tatooine and Dagobah.

Similarly, we can review Ravenloft books, we can talk about them. We are even probably OK quoting small quotes to discuss, or using the cover picture of a novel on the Mistepedia page for that novel. We're probably fine using the art to make our april fools bumper stickers (note that we didn't actually sell them). We can't publish any of the books in their entirety (not that we have or would, with one exception). We can't publish new stories about Strahd or other published Ravenloft characters (which we do all the time, in every netbook). We can't publish stories of new characters travelling through Barovia or other published domains (which we do all the time, in netbooks, pbp, and campaign journals).

Note that that's all based on strict readings of the law, and that both Lucasfilm/Disney and WotC have been more generous than that in what they've let fans get away with. Note also, that even if we could mount a fair use defense, it would still cost more money that we're willing to put into hiring lawyers, etc. So one letter from WotC telling us to cease and desist, and we would likely cease and desist.

We can't even ask for donations to keep the site running. We've been operating at a financial loss for a decade.

Not sure who is your legal counselor, but other fan sites frequently ask for donations, and to no repercussion from WotC. I am happy if you're careful, though

"Everyone else is doing it" is also not a legal defense.. Careful's the name of the game around here. We do our best to give WotC no real or even imagined reason to shut us down, knowing that we exist at their mercy.

[alhoon]

We do our best to give WotC no real or even imagined reason to shut us down, knowing that we exist at their mercy.

I spend a good amount of looted arcane components on my "Confound WotC lawyer" spells! We all do as we must to avoid \ erase-from-memory attention of the site.

[Ender]

For anyone interested, here's an article that gives a brief (for a copyright law discussion) summary of some relevant topics. Note that the article focused on fan fiction and fan art, with which QtR and other online RPG documents share many traits, but are not perfectly identical from a legal standpoint. The article is also 3.5 years old at this point and, thus, lacks more recent insights from cases that have come up since.

ADDENDUM: It should be noted that I am not a copyright lawyer and only have an intense interest in such things. I am no expert, but I like to think I am moderately well-informed.

[mason]

I'm just going to sit patiently and daydream that all of you at the FoS decide to pool resources/talent to start a Kickstarter for the next era of Ravenloft. You could do a Setting/Monster book, and have stretch goals for commissioning other writers (Winter, Heard, Nesmith, Heyday, Conner, etc) to expand and make new adventures. Commssion art (like a Caldwell cover, Talon and Fabian interiors) and maybe even get Mangrum to do his dream version of the ToUD). Even bring back Lowder to fix the Soth situation ('cause we can't have Soth going out like a chump the way he did in Dragons of a Vanished IP Dispute). I would personally love a new mytery adventure setup like Hour of the Knife but placed in a different domain. And perhaps even link Mordenkainen with Azalin in some way. You could even do the maps through dmsguild (drivethru prints 12 x 18 and are real cheap). Just give the backers discount coupons for free pdfs/at cost prints as rewards.

Of course I'm just daydreaming...

[Zilfer]

Where is Bing when you need him eh? xD

[Le Noir Faineant]

I'm not sure if there's a better one. WotC could do their own, but they're allergic to directly taking money and their web design in the past has been poor. And the next time they upgraded editions or website, the content would be 90% dead links.
One Book Shelf/Drive-Thru RPG has been around a while and has proven stability. Good place to host the content IMHO.

Well, for fan material, it really depends on the individual author's motivation: If you want to create content for a WotC IP, then DMsG is the only sesible venue.
But, in most cases I personally have come to know, it's really about people using published material as a starting ground, and then clinging to it because of emotional reasons; in those cases, everything from simulacra, over micro-publishing options, blogs, magazines, and so on could at least be considered.

In theory, new fans of the Realms are emerging every year through the novels or Adventurer's League.

I can't really say much about that, since I am European - but I am skeptical. Most of the guys from the d20 era went on to realize their own projects, even the second- or third-tier guys. Either they already worked for WoTC, or they, positively, moved on. Paizo sure was a gamechanger, but also smaller companies, like TLG, Goodman Games, or Kobold Press. There are just so many option to realize one's dream of writing now, compared to, say, 1999.

What's the alternative? Them give us access to their intellectual property under our conditions? We have no power in the relationship. It's a completely one-sided power structure. They're the producer and we're the consumer.

Sure. Again, it boils down to whether one wants to work with their brands under any condition, or simply write RPG material. - Like, the reason the DMsG has been opened like this is surely a response to the thriving industry around the OGL, and to the life on their own that fansites have taken. I am not talking about the Frat here, even. I am talking about things like OSRIC, GaryCon, or "Lamentations of the Flame Princess". Small projects, but still, enough to hurt the bigger business. D&D as a brand relies heavily on a brand-focused infrastructure. That infrastructure is slowly disappearing, because the fan-base gets ever more fragmented.

"Everyone else is doing it" is also not a legal defense.. Careful's the name of the game around here. We do our best to give WotC no real or even imagined reason to shut us down, knowing that we exist at their mercy.

I personally don't think that day will ever come - but then, yeah, better safe than sorry. In fact, I think the system will get way more liberal, to a point where it changes the market in a profound fashion. That's why I am resisting the DMsG conditions; five years from now, I fully expect at least some of the older games to go full public domain.

...My bet is on my mistress RuneQuest, though, rather than on D&D.

[Ken of Ghastria]

In theory, new fans of the Realms are emerging every year through the novels or Adventurer's League.

I can't really say much about that, since I am European - but I am skeptical. Most of the guys from the d20 era went on to realize their own projects, even the second- or third-tier guys. Either they already worked for WoTC, or they, positively, moved on. Paizo sure was a gamechanger, but also smaller companies, like TLG, Goodman Games, or Kobold Press. There are just so many option to realize one's dream of writing now, compared to, say, 1999.

Yes and no. As someone who thrived during the wave of third-party publishers in the glory days of d20 (roughly 2001-2007), I can say that the RPG publishing market suffered a bit of an implosion in 2008 and 2009. When 4E came out (with strict rules on usage from WotC), many of those publishers either closed up shop or had to scramble for a new system to support, since they could no longer create D&D v3.0/3.5 supplements. Some of the publishers who stuck around abandoned print publishing altogether, opting only to release PDFs, where the freelance rate was so abysmally low that it was practically nonexistent (say, one-tenth of one cent per word). Against that background, the DMs Guild -- imperfect though it may be -- is practically a gold mine. The challenge now for freelancers on the DMs Guild is marketing: "How do I get my product to stand out from the hundreds of other products?" "What can I do to build up interest in my product through social media?"

As for the popularity of D&D right now, Jester is right: The resurgence of D&D, at least in the States, is remarkable. It's amazing how quickly and eagerly D&D fans came back to the fold after 5E's release. It's as though everyone -- including Wizards -- is pretending 4E never existed and everything is right in the world once again.

That's why I am resisting the DMsG conditions; five years from now, I fully expect at least some of the older games to go full public domain.

...My bet is on my mistress RuneQuest, though, rather than on D&D.

The only thing any publisher has to do to retain copyright on a product is put out material based on that product. (I'm oversimplifying things, but that's the essence of it.) And PDF publishing makes that very easy to do.

[alhoon]

I would respectfully disagree about everyone pretending 4E didn't exist. I've read people, many people, that started with it or moved to 4E during their busy-day-I-have-50-mins era that remained entrenched in it. Not the majority of course. But lots.
I admit that sometimes, I miss 4E's board-gameness. There are times that I just want to open a big dungeon map and bash monsters with simple mechanics. Divide the insanely-high monster hp of 4E by half (reducing XP by 30%) and that goal is attainable with 4E, in a far-more-enjoyable way than descent or similar games.

[Ken of Ghastria]

Don't misunderstand me, please: I enjoyed 4E, in spite of the ridiculously long combats. It introduced several concepts that I'm delighted to see incorporated into the new rules (e.g., at-will powers; class specialization at low levels). It's just that, judging from posts on social media and on D&D blogs around the Web, there was a palpable sigh of relief when many gamers got their first taste of 5E. It brought a lot of enthusiasm -- and a lot of players -- back to the game.

[Zilfer]

^It's what I've experienced here in Washington. Only know of 1 local group that played 4e but they played a multitude of systems, from 4e to Shadowrun. Most other's either played 3.5 or pathfinder. Now one of them has switched to 5e and with a Ravenloft module being released I'm at least running a 5e game after I study the players handbook a bit.