Queer Representation in Ravenloft

[TheArcaneWeirdo]

So today was the Trans Visibility Day. I don't have patience to wait until pride month (frankly, I'm hoping to give y'all something bigger for that celebration), so I'm gonna take this opportunity to ask a question I've been waiting to ask:
What queer representation do we have in the fandom?

I've been looking around, and what I found:


Traditional Canon (2e/3e)

- Hazlik.
And, like, that's it. The only gay in the storming demiplane.
- Ivana might be bisexual, but it's written in a very 'they were roommates' way.


5e Continuity

Complain as much as you want about VRGtR, it did a good job in this area.
Now we also have:
- Viktra (Our favourite mad scientist, now genderbent and finally the darklord we knew she was all along) and Elise Mordenheim, a surprisingly accurate lesbian representation.
- Alanik Ray and Arthur Segdewick (Which I probably would have shipped even if I only knew their TC versions), congrats for your marriage.
- Eresmus (he appears as a ghost NPC, there's a whole other thread about it) is said to be aromantic. Nice to see some rep for those too.
- Hazlik is still very gay, though the rest of his backstory is radically changed.


Fan Content

I have to thank Rock here.

- Camille Charleston
- Griffin
- The Red Haunt
- Most Chibiloft characters, I think
- The One & The Other
And the list goes on... Bro, you're the best.

If anyone else has OCs they want mentioned, tell us about them in the comments. I just don't want to accidentally out someone.

We still stand on 0 official transgender characters, and as far as I know 0 netbook ones - a problem I'm intent on fixing.

Is there any character I missed?
Any OC you want mentioned?
Any headcanon?

[Baron Von Stanton]

In Quoth The Raven #32's Register of Monsters, the evil spirits Anyue and Daotaiyang both present as masculine and are described as being lovers.

[The Dark]

Harkon Lukas has been able to assume both male and female human and wolf forms since the Black Box, and uses both human forms in Feast of Goblyns. I'm not sure it fits neatly into a human category since Harkon's not human and wolfweres are able to take multiple forms, but it could be considered to be at least somewhat similar to genderfluidity. Harkon has also sired children in 2e, but I don't think there's any information in TSR products about Harkon's willingness or unwillingness to be involved with males. I don't remember what changes (if any) were made to Harkon's psychology in 5e.

[TheArcaneWeirdo]

Harkon Lukas has been able to assume both male and female human and wolf forms since the Black Box, and uses both human forms in Feast of Goblyns. I'm not sure it fits neatly into a human category since Harkon's not human and wolfweres are able to take multiple forms, but it could be considered to be at least somewhat similar to genderfluidity. Harkon has also sired children in 2e, but I don't think there's any information in TSR products about Harkon's willingness or unwillingness to be involved with males. I don't remember what changes (if any) were made to Harkon's psychology in 5e.

Genderfluidity goes nice with the trickster archetype.
But doesn't Harkon always prefer to take similar forms, according to the description in his Gaz statblock?
Maybe he's, like, the one wolfwere who isn't genderfluid. They're one of those fantasy species where everyone is (by human definitions) intersex, non-binary and pansexual, and straight people are the weird ones. Like in Left Hand of Darkness or that one Star Trek episode. And they shun him for embracing the human gender binary, that's why he left them.

(5e changed Harkon's act of ultimate darkness to rusing his fanbase into an unneeded revolution and mauling the king, his curse to always be forgotten by the people so he can never be famous for more than 5 minutes and his skin colour to dark brown, but his personality is pretty much the same as ever.
Kartakass itself seems more urban and themed more around showbuisness, exploitation in the music industry, the price of fame etc. than wolves.)

[TheArcaneWeirdo]

I've been wondering what would the Vistani do with a trans seer. Either way. Like, considering the prophecy of the Dukkar.
In my opinion prophecies should always go by one's gender identity rather than sex, cause in divination you see stuff spiritually, not physically. (IE transfem seers would have to prove their raunie they're 'real women', transmasc seers coming out would be like 'oh sh¡t', and non-binary seers would get everyone very confused.) But that's my modern interpretation.

Politics warning:

VIEW CONTENT:

I get going to that direction can be triggering to some people (like, the concept of coming out putting your life in danger), but I think it's a topic we need to tackle.

The fantasy trope of 'this magic power is normal for women but it'll be a disaster in men's hands' is reflective of our real-life perception - that being masculine means to be aggressive and destructive, that all men are potential predators, that sensitivity and empathy are somehow exclusive to women.
No, it's not only incels or radical feminists who think like that. It's in all of us's subconcioisness. Just ask yourself the 'man VS bear' question.

And this perception hurts men, it hurts the feministic struggle, and most of all it hurts trans people.
Cause if men are dangerous by default, how can you fully trust someone who says they're a woman but looks like one of them? If to be a real man I have to be an emotionless brute, how can I feel good about transitioning?

I think using a radical example, when the question of whether an individual is a man or not so-called decides the fate of an entire people, can be a good way to bring this fear to the surface via allegory, spark discussion and maybe face our eternal demons.

[TheArcaneWeirdo]

Now I'm thinking what are even your options for transitioning in Ravenloft.
Like, in most DND worlds you're one 'alter self' spell away from your gender goals, but with how rare and controversial spellcasting is in most domains, this could take a whole arc... Most likely with horrific results.

I think The Carnival is your best shot?
Like, The Turning is supposed to change you into what you are on the inside or something like that. What could be better for affirming your gender?
Of course, it might also expose other sides of you, so consider carefully every aspect of your personality and how it might manifest before you take this option.

Victor/Victra Mordenheim could be convinced to experiment with gender affirming therapy, but mostly out of scientific curiosity, and be sure they'd try to add some... Additional improvements.

Any other ideas?

[The Dark]

Harkon Lukas has been able to assume both male and female human and wolf forms since the Black Box, and uses both human forms in Feast of Goblyns. I'm not sure it fits neatly into a human category since Harkon's not human and wolfweres are able to take multiple forms, but it could be considered to be at least somewhat similar to genderfluidity. Harkon has also sired children in 2e, but I don't think there's any information in TSR products about Harkon's willingness or unwillingness to be involved with males. I don't remember what changes (if any) were made to Harkon's psychology in 5e.

Genderfluidity goes nice with the trickster archetype.
But doesn't Harkon always prefer to take similar forms, according to the description in his Gaz statblock?

In 2e he can change between wolf, hybrid, and humanoid, with his humanoid forms being any race or gender, but each combination of race and gender is fixed in appearance, so his male elf form is always the same male elf. That's said to be a restriction imposed by "greater powers" in the Black Box. Given that it's an imposed limitation from outside Lukas, it could be an ironic curse where his desire for more order than the typical wolfwere (his original species before 5e adapted him as a loup-garou) has been twisted to limit his ability to make his shape match his self-image.

He also didn't really have an act of ultimate darkness in the Black Box, because the criteria for a new Darklord in "Forming New Lands" was for them to be evil, have great power and/or emotions, and be near the Misty Border of Ravenloft, which might be a manifestation of the Ethereal Plane. That new land will then reflect their personality and offenses against others. A lot of the common trappings of Ravenloft post-date Lukas' creation and had to be retconned onto his profile. I'm not sure there's even an explicit mention of the Dark Powers in the original boxed set.

[TheArcaneWeirdo]

He also didn't really have an act of ultimate darkness in the Black Box, because the criteria for a new Darklord in "Forming New Lands" was for them to be evil, have great power and/or emotions, and be near the Misty Border of Ravenloft, which might be a manifestation of the Ethereal Plane. That new land will then reflect their personality and offenses against others. A lot of the common trappings of Ravenloft post-date Lukas' creation and had to be retconned onto his profile. I'm not sure there's even an explicit mention of the Dark Powers in the original boxed set.

It's fascinating how the setting evolved over the years.

[TheArcaneWeirdo]

As for how each domain would treat LGBT+

- I think the Mordentish are too traditionalistic to openly talk about this sort of things, but are very into plausible deniability. Like, no one is going to stop you from spending your life with your 'very close friend', but please keep quiet about it for the sake of politeness. Go ahead and socially transition, as long as you're willing to adhere to the very strict gender norms of your 'new' gender. Or you can cause a lil scandal and take your chances with the homophobic ghosts (you know who you are!).
(I think that's the smoothest way to eat our cake and have it with Mordent being both the 'British countryside town where nothing had changed in ages' domain and the mostly safe place for heroes in a setting that desparately needs one.)

- Borcans treat homosexual relationships the same way they treat heterosexual ones: They acknowledge love, but never confuse it with marriage. They'd rather have you marrying someone of the opposite sex then cheating on them with a same-sex lover than simply marrying someone of the same sex, cause reasons. Borca is actually one of the most dangerous places in The Core for queer people, because many families wouldn't hesitate to discreetly get rid of a member threatening to risk their reputation.
Surprisingly, the Boritsi are more liberal than most in that regard. Ivana tried once or twice to start a reform in that regard, but the other nobles strongly resisted - maybe the only tine in history they had the guts to do that - and the mere attempt made the populace demonize her even more than they already had. (Dread Possibility: This is all the DP's conspiracy to further frustrate Ivana by preventing her from ever publicly admitting her love for Nostalia.)

- The Church of the Lawgiver is apparently assumed by everyone to be the biggest homophobes in the setting - on base of them being bigoted in every other area (classism especially being integral to their dogma, ableism, mysogyny and human supermacy over demihumans also being dominant) - despite no real evidence.
I'm not going against the majority.
However, I'd like to headcanon that Hazlik actually did one good thing in his damned life, and passed a bunch of pro-LGBT+ laws as part of the same reform when he removed the ban on arcane magic.
In fact, The Red Academy is incredibly inclusive - which is what gives you a malign paradigm shift from hell when the same folks who asked you what your pronouns are when you first arrived and called out the merchant who misgendered you turn out to see no ethical problem with transforming your friends into abberrations for the sake of an experiment.

- In Valachan they just don't give a dam about how you identify or who you love. Do what you want. It's none of their buisness. They don't even get why people from other domains make such a fuss about it.

- Darkon is equally liberal, and I'll explain why:

1) Narrative-wise: In most Ravenloft domains,
xenophobia is part of the vibe. Anything out
of the ordinary is suspicious, even stuff IRL
we'd just scroll by, because otherwise it's a
slippery slope towards seeing vampires as
great folks who just need regular blood
donations.
And then you have Darkon.
If Mordent is the mostly safe place, Darkon is
the mostly sane place where people
don't treat the village half a day away like
another planet and people with a different
hair colour like unnatural monsters. It's the
one place where the diversity we know and
love in other DND world - the way an elf, a
human, a dwarf and a halfling traveling in a
carriage driven by a tabaxi to a tavern ran by
a dragonborn is a perfectly normal sight - can
be seen again, where you can finally feel
comfortable being yourself ... Until you realise
this is a corrupt dictatorship where going out
at night can get you killed by zombies, the
king himself is a soul-eating evil wizard and if
you stay around for too long you'd lose your
memories. So while in Mordent I wanted to
preserve this conservative vibe, Darkon's vibe
is diverse and inclusive in the first place.

2) Religion-wise: The Eternal Order is too
nihlistic to discriminate one group over
another. Like, we're already rebeling the gods
by being alive, who are we to tell eachother
how to live?
The Overseer, on the other hand, is too
wholesome and non-judgmental.
The only religion around really has the kind of
attitude you need for bigotry in the name of
God is, well, the Nevuchar Springs sect of the
Church of Ezra, which is still too new to
change people's mind about this.

- I think Port-A-Lucine is one of the only places that has something like a queer community, but it starts and ends in the night clubs. The most glitterry drag shows in the multiverse, but no support network, no activism - most people don't even dream of being out of the closet in their everyday lives!

And a slightly darker note on Dementlieu:
So back in Mordent, James Mousel is trying to invent psychotherapy. He sounds to me like an awesome guy with good intentions who'd have the intellectual integrity to tell anyone who asks that homosexuality isn't a mental illness.
Guess what? So was Freud.
Didn't stop his disciples from abusing his methods to claim otherwise.
And Dr. Mousel, as much as I like him, didn't exactly make a good choice of an apprentice. We know Celeste has every intention of manipulating and gaslighting her patients to ends of her own.
Anyone else guesses what, unfortunately, she's about to invent?

[The Dark]

Now I'm thinking what are even your options for transitioning in Ravenloft.
Like, in most DND worlds you're one 'alter self' spell away from your gender goals, but with how rare and controversial spellcasting is in most domains, this could take a whole arc... Most likely with horrific results.

I think The Carnival is your best shot?
Like, The Turning is supposed to change you into what you are on the inside or something like that. What could be better for affirming your gender?
Of course, it might also expose other sides of you, so consider carefully every aspect of your personality and how it might manifest before you take this option.

Victor/Victra Mordenheim could be convinced to experiment with gender affirming therapy, but mostly out of scientific curiosity, and be sure they'd try to add some... Additional improvements.

Any other ideas?

For AD&D 2e in general, with limited references to Ravenloft specifically:

For 2e spells, Polymorph Other or Change Form should both work; Alter Self would only be extremely temporary (3d4 rounds + 2 rounds per caster level) and it can't affect others. Polymorph Self also has a duration, but the two spells suggested are both permanent unless dispelled (with Change Form needing Wish to dispel). Polymorph Other is more dangerous because it requires a System Shock roll, but it's also significantly lower level (4th to Change Self's 8th) and faster (instantaneous compared to the change taking weeks). The problems there are tied to the (relative) scarcity of magic in 2e Ravenloft, the risk of Polymorph Other both in its potential deadliness and needing to trust someone else to cast it on you, and Change Self's high level needed to alter yourself.

A much easier (but less-canon) way comes from Dragon #270 (April 2000), where one can find Zagig's Gender Shift, which does exactly what the name says. It's a 3rd-level spell that's permanent until dispelled or another Gender Shift is cast on the target.

A Queen of Hearts from a (2e) Deck of Many Things should also do it, since that grants 1d3 Wish spells. Dangerous as heck both because Wish isn't safe and the Deck has multiple lethal draws, but theoretically possible. Anything else that grants Wish could also work, although summoning genies would run into the Ravenloft summoning problem, so a Ring of Multiple Wishes would be about as safe as this technique gets.

There's the Girdle of Femininity/Masculinity, which is out-of-game problematic because it's presented as a cursed item, but its effect could be desirable for someone experiencing gender dysphoria. If the curse is because it's forcing a gender change regardless of the wearer's desire and the risk of the magic malfunctioning and leaving the wearer neuter (rather than just because it allows a gender change), it may be slightly more acceptable, and making an item with a similar effect easily identified and voluntary would (I think) eliminate the issue.

[TheArcaneWeirdo]

[quote=TheArcaneWeirdo post_id=260088

For AD&D 2e in general, with limited references to Ravenloft specifically:

For 2e spells, Polymorph Other or Change Form should both work; Alter Self would only be extremely temporary (3d4 rounds + 2 rounds per caster level) and it can't affect others. Polymorph Self also has a duration, but the two spells suggested are both permanent unless dispelled (with Change Form needing Wish to dispel). Polymorph Other is more dangerous because it requires a System Shock roll, but it's also significantly lower level (4th to Change Self's 8th) and faster (instantaneous compared to the change taking weeks). The problems there are tied to the (relative) scarcity of magic in 2e Ravenloft, the risk of Polymorph Other both in its potential deadliness and needing to trust someone else to cast it on you, and Change Self's high level needed to alter yourself.

Thank you very much for the correction.

A much easier (but less-canon) way comes from Dragon #270 (April 2000), where one can find Zagig's Gender Shift, which does exactly what the name says. It's a 3rd-level spell that's permanent until dispelled or another Gender Shift is cast on the target.

Reminder to myself:
No matter how bizzare or niche an idea is, there's always a Dragon Magazine article that did exactly that.

There's the Girdle of Femininity/Masculinity, which is out-of-game problematic because it's presented as a cursed item, but its effect could be desirable for someone experiencing gender dysphoria. If the curse is because it's forcing a gender change regardless of the wearer's desire and the risk of the magic malfunctioning and leaving the wearer neuter (rather than just because it allows a gender change), it may be slightly more acceptable, and making an item with a similar effect easily identified and voluntary would (I think) eliminate the issue.

Cursed with Awesome, the funniest trope ever.

[The Dark]

[quote=TheArcaneWeirdo post_id=260088

For AD&D 2e in general, with limited references to Ravenloft specifically:

For 2e spells, Polymorph Other or Change Form should both work; Alter Self would only be extremely temporary (3d4 rounds + 2 rounds per caster level) and it can't affect others. Polymorph Self also has a duration, but the two spells suggested are both permanent unless dispelled (with Change Form needing Wish to dispel). Polymorph Other is more dangerous because it requires a System Shock roll, but it's also significantly lower level (4th to Change Self's 8th) and faster (instantaneous compared to the change taking weeks). The problems there are tied to the (relative) scarcity of magic in 2e Ravenloft, the risk of Polymorph Other both in its potential deadliness and needing to trust someone else to cast it on you, and Change Self's high level needed to alter yourself.

Thank you very much for the correction.

Less a correction than looking at how Alter Self works in 2e. That's pretty much the worst edition for that spell, since (checking the online SRDs) in 3e it lasts 10 minutes/level and in 5e it's Concentration up to 1 hour. A high-level 3e caster with Extend Spell could get 6 hours or so out of a single casting, which isn't perfect but is certainly better than 2e.

A much easier (but less-canon) way comes from Dragon #270 (April 2000), where one can find Zagig's Gender Shift, which does exactly what the name says. It's a 3rd-level spell that's permanent until dispelled or another Gender Shift is cast on the target.

Reminder to myself:
No matter how bizzare or niche an idea is, there's always a Dragon Magazine article that did exactly that.

This issue's a bit weird, too. April issues were traditionally quite satirical in honor of April Fool's Day, but I think the only outright comedy article was one statting out the characters from the Nodwick comic strip. There are a few others that are either silly topics handled seriously (the ecology of the Gorbel) or serious topics handled humorously (Robin Laws' Leaders on Followers), but there's also some totally serious stuff like how demons infiltrate Prime planes or new monsters created by Iuz. The Zagig spell comes from a Greyhawk Grimoires article, and while it's a little silly because Zagig Yragerne became Greyhawk's god of Humor and Eccentricity, it's not an over the top parody like I would expect from an April spellbook.

[Le Noir Faineant]

-- How much of this background lore would players in a campaign actually get to experience, though?

Let's say a PC is LGBTQ+, and for whatever reason thinks it's a good idea to publicly express their love to another individual in a medieval-coded society that has a unifying tradition for violently deposing of nonconformists -- how that plays out is largely to the individual groups, and to the individual DMs.
My own take would be: "Y'all dead." Not because the society or community would necessarily discriminate against a certain type of people - but because discrimination is a tool: The village priest wants to get rid of you, he calls you a "heretic". The reasons really don't matter - you're tall, you're "too tall"; you're gay, you're "too gay". -- Now, that all makes for fun adventuring, if done well: "Help the gay prince escape with his love, the Goblin stable boy", that's a lovely campaign. (And I'm dead serious about that.)

With the Darklords, however, how does LGBTQ-coding them in a way that is relevant to the actual game not invite discrimination and bigotry? - Say, Harkon Lucas being bisexual, or Hazlik's closeted guilt: How do you present that in a way that is not inherently negative?

Like, these characters are not supposed to be "morally grey". They have committed "acts of ultimate darkness". (I think, in 5e as well.) Don't we create decidedly anti-LGBTQ and very stereotypical "fiends" the moment we connect their sexual orientation to their negative acts, or acts against the PCs?

Say, "ravenous Harkon Lucas, not-so-discreet bisexual" - sure sounds funky. But if we really buy into that premise, don't we end up equating homosexuality to cannibalism, like Dan Simmons infamously does in "The Terror"? Or, "the evil noble that is into pretty young men" - that's just the plot to Orson Scott Card's "Hamlet's Father" if the DM is not careful.

-- Genuinely asking: How would you do this?

[Mistmaster]

Generally, if I have a queer darklord I would have also a queer lightlord so to highlight that there is bad and good in any group.

[Gonzoron of the FoS]

It doesn't take much reading between the lines to see that Baron Metus is canonically bi. He had a female vistani lover in his backstory named Andrianna, and also took Erasmus Van Richten as a vampire Groom/companion. If you want to be painfully heteronormative, you could say that he only wanted to be "just friends forever" with Erasmus. But the implication of making someone a vampire companion rather than a normal vampire is that you mean to be romantically linked.