I thought I’d open this thread and try and gather some thoughts and experiences of playing and DM'ing assassins in Ravenloft.
In my campaign/world view of Ravenloft:
Currently there’s the remains of the Baal Versi -although in my campaign they are not Nosferatu, but waiting patiently to strike against Strahd again.
Malkens a frequent user of assassins. I seem to remember in the 2nd edition redbox set -Malken uses them to dog would be escapee's from his domain.
The middle ranks of the Kargat also contain less than human assassins. The kargatane contain a couple of blood boosted individuals. Although I have yet to fully flesh this out. The characters investigations are leading them towards 'the city of ashes' in order to investigate claims of the secret of 'eternal life'. They could be in for a surprise
From Falkovnias point of view. Drakov retains an elite alchemical boosted team- in order to eliminate particular troublesome individuals -such as adventurers -where even Raptor knights have failed. Borca obviously contains its share of poisoners and strahd probably retains one or two to help sow dissension between other darklords (as in the final pages of I strahd).
From a players point of view:
I have allowed a player to use the ninja class from the complete adventurer -merely making it an occidental class, rather than using the DMG prestige class.
Obviously playing an assassin in ravenloft in fraught with ethical/powercheck issues, however playing the total cool, calm professional rather than a slay happy backstabber seems to work quite well. The rest of the party has no idea -well until the folding Xbow came out. Has anyone any experiences of playing an assassin in Ravenloft?
They rarely last long. Killing for money or orders is still inherently a problem. Even if the individual is evil one is still taking out a contract to end the life of another.
The ninja might be a safer bet as he/she may not have to take on "hits"
Either way professional killers are going to end up with their backs to the DPs.
I remember the first war, the way the sky burned... Faces of angels destroyed.
Depending on the angle one is watching from, in some cases adventurers are really no different than hired killers. The ailing town takes note of the road-weary adventurers, or vice versa, and one way or another a bargain is struck to help the town out of its always-perceived-as-evil predicament. Be it for money or barter--or other selfish reasons--it really makes no difference as it is mercenary by nature.
Are the adventurers--the PCs--not in effect becoming hired killers in these types of situations?
Killing good is no different than killing evil; both are acts of destruction. Or in other words, there is no such thing as a 'good war' or 'peaceful protest'; both are contradictions that are actually laughable when you break them down. And with that said, the Dark Powers of Ravenloft are just as much of a contradiction. They have yet to be developed with this 'neutrality' in mind. Cultures have many differing views on things such as Life and Death--essentially throwing the D&D alignment system out of whack--and this should be somewhat of a factor in a world that boasts such a variety of culture as Ravenloft does, especially in the system described as the 'Dark Powers'. And the fact that there will be someone reading this who will disagree with the statement leading off this paragraph--and who may even post their opinion on the matter--is exactly my point. The only way the Dark Powers can apply to all is for them to be based around intentions (which it partially is); completely neutral to the applications and machinations of society. One might even say unequivocally literal in its understanding of the actions and reactions of the creatures under their powers.
Getting back on track (sorry!), I like the idea of player character-run assassins--ninja especially--but as the game stands the fun factor would be limited to the stages in the Path of Corruption. As a disposable plot or one that has the player characters briefly controlling the NPCs hounding them maybe, but as a campaign character growth is severely limited given the rules that are stacked against them.
That's just me though.
P.S.: I just noticed the title "Table 3-6: Recommended Powers Checks" in the Core Rulebook. Note the word 'Recommended'. I didn't.
Throwing it back to The Dr >cough<: Anybody have alternative recommendations for Powers Checks? More specifically that will allow a PC a little more elbow room when it comes to playing assassins and other 'morally neutral' types of characters.
Geez, I wasted how much time and thought on this thread? :lol:
The way I apply power checks to morally neutralish characters is to apply the emotion test. The dark powers seem to have a special interest in great 'dark emotions'. The stronger the anger, rage, jealousy, hate, cowadice etc... the greater the chance of a powercheck. To a professional assasin, a band of mercenaries, a soldier - To them its just a job. It also prevents Ravenloft being full of failed powercheck armies, militia and mercenary companies. (When it comes down to it - all hired killers).
Something has to tweak the dark powers interest. As a DM im that judge not an arbitary dice roll. (although I will roll once that interest is tweaked) Typically but not always its great emotion. I prefer to keep the dark powers exceptionally low key. Therefore I can run quite a gritty Ravenloft campaign -with some slightly more darker than usual characters.
Mad Skipper wrote:
Killing good is no different than killing evil; both are acts of destruction. Or in other words, there is no such thing as a 'good war' or 'peaceful protest'; both are contradictions that are actually laughable when you break them down. And with that said, the Dark Powers of Ravenloft are just as much of a contradiction. They have yet to be developed with this 'neutrality' in mind. Cultures have many differing views on things such as Life and Death--essentially throwing the D&D alignment system out of whack--and this should be somewhat of a factor in a world that boasts such a variety of culture as Ravenloft does, especially in the system described as the 'Dark Powers'. And the fact that there will be someone reading this who will disagree with the statement leading off this paragraph--and who may even post their opinion on the matter--is exactly my point. The only way the Dark Powers can apply to all is for them to be based around intentions (which it partially is); completely neutral to the applications and machinations of society. One might even say unequivocally literal in its understanding of the actions and reactions of the creatures under their powers.
In standard Ravenloft, morals are entirely objective. In the real world, they definitely are not - hence what makes Ravenloft such a nasty place. You can get cursed three times over for transgressing unspoken laws you didn't even know existed. Want a shelter from an incoming storm? Ah, but in hiding in this black tomb you've desecrated the sacred remains of the royal family - shame on you. Your ancestors were evil to the core? Well, even though you yourself never did anything wrong, you still have to repent for the crimes they commited, if you don't want to bear their curse for the rest of your life. That's how I like to portray morality in Ravenloft: strange, unpredictable and terrifying. Mortals may think what they will, in Ravenloft, the Dark Powers (and hence the DM) are the ultimate (often arbitrary) judge of good and evil.
As for the original question, though I never had a PC assassin in my games, I think that with enough good will from the DM's part, it can work quite well in Ravenloft - especially the cool professional type. I'd only make it clear to the player that in a place like Ravenloft, such a character will unlikely last long enough to retire happily. I'd treat the PC exactly the same as anyone else - powers checks and all. If he fails, its part of the game. Accepting to play a 'doomed' PC just for the fun of portraying him is one of the symptoms of a great roleplayer.
Killing good is no different than killing evil; both are acts of destruction. Or in other words, there is no such thing as a 'good war' or 'peaceful protest'; both are contradictions that are actually laughable when you break them down. And with that said, the Dark Powers of Ravenloft are just as much of a contradiction. They have yet to be developed with this 'neutrality' in mind. Cultures have many differing views on things such as Life and Death--essentially throwing the D&D alignment system out of whack--and this should be somewhat of a factor in a world that boasts such a variety of culture as Ravenloft does, especially in the system described as the 'Dark Powers'. And the fact that there will be someone reading this who will disagree with the statement leading off this paragraph--and who may even post their opinion on the matter--is exactly my point. The only way the Dark Powers can apply to all is for them to be based around intentions (which it partially is); completely neutral to the applications and machinations of society. One might even say unequivocally literal in its understanding of the actions and reactions of the creatures under their powers.
The whole point of the dark powers is to have a mystical force that judges people for doing evil. As opposed to other realms where everything is cut and dry...oh well we think we're doing good...
Most evil characters rationalize to themselves that they are doing good...but really they aren't.
Igor the Henchman wrote:
In standard Ravenloft, morals are entirely objective. In the real world, they definitely are not - hence what makes Ravenloft such a nasty place. You can get cursed three times over for transgressing unspoken laws you didn't even know existed.
(snip)
That's how I like to portray morality in Ravenloft: strange, unpredictable and terrifying. Mortals may think what they will, in Ravenloft, the Dark Powers (and hence the DM) are the ultimate (often arbitrary) judge of good and evil.
Wow. I loved the way you put that. I'll have to use that for my games. I have the same sense of the Dark Powers. Morality for the Dark Powers is sort of like Strahd's whim. You never know what might happen.
Which fits the Medieval mindset, too.
Now I know, now I can divine. The reign of man is over, and He has come....
Igor the Henchman wrote:
In standard Ravenloft, morals are entirely objective. In the real world, they definitely are not - hence what makes Ravenloft such a nasty place. You can get cursed three times over for transgressing unspoken laws you didn't even know existed.
(snip)
That's how I like to portray morality in Ravenloft: strange, unpredictable and terrifying. Mortals may think what they will, in Ravenloft, the Dark Powers (and hence the DM) are the ultimate (often arbitrary) judge of good and evil.
Wow. I loved the way you put that. I'll have to use that for my games. I have the same sense of the Dark Powers. Morality for the Dark Powers is sort of like Strahd's whim. You never know what might happen.
Which fits the Medieval mindset, too.
It shouldn't be at a total whim, like, it would be very unfair if the Dark Powers were to ignore a knight who kicked a peasant into the mud because he refused to be the knight's stepstool, while then bestow the knight claws and fangs for throwing a rock at a dog.
The Dark Powers should be logical.
Sort of.
"Arrogant mortal! You are in my world now and you will never leave this attic alive! I will destroy you, and then I will possess she whom you love the most. And there is not a single thing in the world you can do to stop me!"
*poke*
"OW!"
-Dracula
Darkknight wrote:Professional killers are going to end up with their backs to the DPs.
I wanted to get an assassin in RL, but since there are the power checks, I decided against it! However, I think that as class the assassin is very good, but you should have high stats in almost all abilities.
- The first 2 Feats a wizard should take are "point blank shot" and "Precise shot"!
- W H A T ! ? !
- Or they should NEVER memorize rays!
I wouldn't characterize it as a whim. Just rigid and set rules that are occaisionally unknowable and unfathomable. The way I see it, right and wrong ARE absolutes in Ravenloft, but only in the opinion of the Dark Powers. The rules of right and wrong may not be what I would believe as right and wrong, but it's not for me to judge, it's only for me to carry out the will of the Dark Powers.
"We're realistic heroes. We're not here to save the world, just nudge the world into a better place."
Two heimin (commoners) are walking down the street, quietly conversing. They both fail to notice a samurai walking towards them and one of the heimin accidently bumps into the samurai, knocking him back a step or two. The samurai responds by drawing his katana and cleaving the man who bumped into him, and continues on his way after cleansing his blade of the man's blood.
In Ravenloft this would probably constitute a Dark Powers check. Murder, Nonbrutal. But considering the culture that Rokushima Taiyoo is based on (feudal Japan), the samurai did not commit an evil act, so no check is actually required. In fact, the samurai's reaction would be within his rights. And to apply a check here in this example would not make any sense, as throughout their lifetimes every samurai would eventually be well along the Paths of Corruption, given the nature of their society. Which isn't a bad idea when I really think about it (an island of warriors as demonic as their armor), but not the point I am trying to make. The point is, the Dark Powers, as they exist in print, seem to cater only to specific cultures. I would say those more or less of the European variety.
Assisting in hara-kiri or seppuku (ritual suicide) would be another example, but one with much more arguable impact.
If the Dark Powers reacted to intentions (evil grows in the heart and mind, and becomes a physical or outward extension), then they would know wether the samurai slaughtered that heimin out of personal anger (and then comes the subsequent powers check), or out of social expectation/acceptance (no check).
I understand what Igor and the others have said, and well said it was!, but that explanation appears to exclude the more exotic cultures. The fact that the Dark Powers exist as they do, with a certain moral and therefore cultural mindset, is really the spot I'm aiming at here. It works, but only from certain angles (cultural views). It will work, but only if the DM will put some work into it.
Like I said, this is just me. I can play with the Dark Powers as they are, and I do, but I really think they could be improved if it wants to be a stand alone system.
Two heimin (commoners) are walking down the street, quietly conversing. They both fail to notice a samurai walking towards them and one of the heimin accidently bumps into the samurai, knocking him back a step or two. The samurai responds by drawing his katana and cleaving the man who bumped into him, and continues on his way after cleansing his blade of the man's blood.
In Ravenloft this would probably constitute a Dark Powers check. Murder, Nonbrutal. But considering the culture that Rokushima Taiyoo is based on (feudal Japan), the samurai did not commit an evil act, so no check is actually required. In fact, the samurai's reaction would be within his rights. And to apply a check here in this example would not make any sense, as throughout their lifetimes every samurai would eventually be well along the Paths of Corruption, given the nature of their society. Which isn't a bad idea when I really think about it (an island of warriors as demonic as their armor), but not the point I am trying to make. The point is, the Dark Powers, as they exist in print, seem to cater only to specific cultures. I would say those more or less of the European variety.
Assisting in hara-kiri or seppuku (ritual suicide) would be another example, but one with much more arguable impact.
If the Dark Powers reacted to intentions (evil grows in the heart and mind, and becomes a physical or outward extension), then they would know wether the samurai slaughtered that heimin out of personal anger (and then comes the subsequent powers check), or out of social expectation/acceptance (no check).
I understand what Igor and the others have said, and well said it was!, but that explanation appears to exclude the more exotic cultures. The fact that the Dark Powers exist as they do, with a certain moral and therefore cultural mindset, is really the spot I'm aiming at here. It works, but only from certain angles (cultural views). It will work, but only if the DM will put some work into it.
Like I said, this is just me. I can play with the Dark Powers as they are, and I do, but I really think they could be improved if it wants to be a stand alone system.
Even in Rokushima Taiyoo, such an odious and blatant disregard for life would call for a Powers Check. I say this, as, Rokushima Taiyoo, I'm presuming, follows the philosophy of Neoconfucianism, a corruption Confucianism that, put in a very small nutshell, is about how the people in charge have a godgiven right to boss their inferiors around, and that they are incapable of being wrong, regardless of or not they really are, and that inferiors have no rights of their own, other than to boss around those who are inferior to them.
If Confucius were alive to see how samurai behave, there'd be no doubt that he'd think that they behaved in an appallingly inhuman manner.
"Arrogant mortal! You are in my world now and you will never leave this attic alive! I will destroy you, and then I will possess she whom you love the most. And there is not a single thing in the world you can do to stop me!"
*poke*
"OW!"
-Dracula
It all boils down to personal morals. The DP only care is you willingly do something that you personaly beleave is wrong.
Take a island nation of canibals. Normal europian morals /western religon dictate that eating the flesh of a another man is a irrovakable sin.
For the Islanders however the ultimate act of love and respect is to take the body of your fallen hero on to yourself. His strength and courage will continue within the body of another. The western ideal of burial is sacralige to them as it wastes the one proud body to rot and dishonors the hero by not letting his spirit be reborn in another.
If the Islander wilingly defiles the body of a loved one however, allowing it to rot and become uneatable the DP will stike down on him with a power check as he has done something he knows of as being a sin.
"Love never dies a natural death. It dies because we don't know how to replenish it's source. It dies of blindness and errors and betrayals. It dies of illness and wounds; it dies of weariness, of witherings, of tarnishings."
Anais Nin
Jasper o' nine liv wrote:It all boils down to personal morals. The DP only care is you willingly do something that you personaly beleave is wrong.
Take a island nation of canibals. Normal europian morals /western religon dictate that eating the flesh of a another man is a irrovakable sin.
For the Islanders however the ultimate act of love and respect is to take the body of your fallen hero on to yourself. His strength and courage will continue within the body of another. The western ideal of burial is sacralige to them as it wastes the one proud body to rot and dishonors the hero by not letting his spirit be reborn in another.
If the Islander wilingly defiles the body of a loved one however, allowing it to rot and become uneatable the DP will stike down on him with a power check as he has done something he knows of as being a sin.
On the other hand, you do must realize that, even if cannibalism, er, taking the flesh of loved ones into your own, is a great way to get disease.
Ever hear of Kuru disease?
"Arrogant mortal! You are in my world now and you will never leave this attic alive! I will destroy you, and then I will possess she whom you love the most. And there is not a single thing in the world you can do to stop me!"
*poke*
"OW!"
-Dracula
This definitely deserves a separete thread. Still, the discussion is quite fun, so I'll continue if I may. Mad Skipper, the samurai example gave me some head-scratching, but I think I can best express my views by pointing at similar cultures that exist within the Core. In Nova Vaasa, it is the nobility's "moral" duty to supress and punish any commoner peasant who tries to rise above his rank. The Church of Lawgiver even provides a sacred status to this philosophy. Does this mean that nobles from that domain are immune from Powers Checks so long as they act as the Lawgiver teaches them? I would say no.
The same logic can be applied to some pretty evil practices in renaissance Europe. Just because the Church of God says you should kill Muslims, discriminate Jews and execute practitioners of witch-craft (I'm sure Wiccy will uphold me here) doesn't mean you come out of these actions morally clean.
How can it be possible, then, that domains such as Falkovnia, who could give lessons in tyranny and injustice, don't have half their law enforcers cursed for their actions? Well, here my explanation joins Mad Skipper's: the Dark Powers do close their eyes on some of this. And if I'm right, they do so quite wisely: in embracing such a vile social order, these cultures damn themselves pretty well on their own, without need of outside intervention. Though their view of morals is hard and unbending, the Dark Powers do seem to have a favorite menu - people who seem to commit evil acts with impunity and attempt to evade exterior or interior punishment.
Call it universal human nature or whatever, but the social order you live in is no justification for behaving against your conscience. The samurai in your above example is a cruel and despicable man who has grown to accept his right to kill peasants as given. The fact that the peasants may be willing victims attenuates his cruelty somewhat, but that doesn't remove the taint from his actions.
To better illustrate my case, let's imagine that the offending commoner is greatly afraid of death, to the point of pleading the samurai to spare his life, or attempting to escape his "rightful" punishment. Let's say his friend is so upset at seeing his fellow chopped to pieces that he forgets the local conventions and stands in the samurai's way, or attempts to call for help? If, in this situation, the samurai still chooses to follow his conventions and kill the unfortunate heimin, I would definitely call for a Powers Check, arguing that the local customs aren't an excuse for going about commiting crimes against your fellow man. It is hard, it is most inconvenient, but that's the way it is.
As for Jasper's example, I'd tend to agree that in such a cannibal society, eating the dead, so long as all the sacred rituals and prerequisites are met, would not be considered an act worthy of a Powers Check (now, use this custom to justify acts of defilement on other nations' dead, however...) This example applies to the section of the Powers Checks chart that is custom-dependant: Unholy Acts. I would tend to leave the cannibal Island alone, using its practices more as a "spook-trick" to upset the players and give them some moral dilemnas (see how an objective morality doesn't prevent mortals from arguing in what directions to twist it?) I'd rule, however, that the practice has led to severe cases of disease and the growth of local ghoul population.
The reason I like the "uncaring morality" approach to Ravenloft is its potential for horror. Some of the most frightening experiences heroes of a horror tale can face is the realisation that some of their basic beliefs are somehow wrong, and out there dwell monstrous enemies who understand the real rules better than they. I find the notion that morals can act as your enemy as easily as they can be your friend, to be a great implimentation of this.
