4E reshaping Demons/Devils´ history

[The Giamarga]

So what do you guys think about this:

Anyway, let me tell you what I've been up to since GenCon. In a word: monsters. The writing team (that's me, James Wyatt, Bruce Cordell, and Chris Sims) is working on fleshing out the Monster Manual entries and doing a bit of a "story" pass on the monsters. Last week I spent a couple of days working on devils. Here are a couple of devilish tidbits I'll leak for now:

- Devils are angels who rebelled. They rose up against the deity they served and murdered him. The crime of deicide is unimaginably perverse for angels, and hence devils were cursed and imprisoned in the Nine Hells.
- The Nine Hells are what became of the murdered deity's divine realm after his death. The Hells are the devils' prison, and it is difficult for them to get out without mortal aid.
- We've re-sorted demons and devils a bit, since we want these two categories of monsters to make a little more sense. Devils tend to be more humanoid in form, usually fight with weapons, and often wear armor. Most have horns, wings, and tails. One consequence of this: the erinyes and the succubus were holding down pretty similar territory, so we've decided that they're the same monster, called the succubus, and it's a devil.
- Ice devils don't look like other devils. We've decided that they are actually a demonic/yugoloth race... one that was entrapped by Mephistopheles long ago in an infernal contract. So ice devils hate other devils, retain their insect-like appearance, and have a special loyalty to Mephistopheles. It's one of the reasons why Asmodeus has never chosen to move against Mephistopheles. Asmodeus would of course win if he did, but that would let the ice devils out of their contract.

from Rich Baker´s Blog


While I find the idea with the Gelugons interesting, I absolutely hate all the rest. Basically they are throwing all flavour that came before to the wind and contradicting 30 years of D&D lore.

[Pamela]

D&D contradicted 3000 years of Greek lore by turning Erinyes into demons in the first place, so I'm hardly going to cry if they remove them.

[NykylaiHellray]

I am only annoyed about the succubus move mainly.

As it contridicts alot of fluff =/....

CE demon women are also to cool to lose to the nine hells.

[Igor the Henchman]

If every new tidbit about 4E will generate a thread, shouldn't we set up a 4E discussion board?

[NeoTiamat]

I don't really think this will have much effect on us here in the demiplane (with all half-dozen fiends we have), but oh how the Planescape people will *howl*....

Excuse me, I'm going to go and make sure they find out....

Edit: Dangit! They already knew.....

[Rotipher of the FoS]

I am only annoyed about the succubus move mainly.

As it contridicts alot of fluff =/....

CE demon women are also to cool to lose to the nine hells.

Maybe some of the devil-succubi have switched sides?


Personally, my feelings on this are mixed. On the one hand, I never got into Planescape, so I'm not particularly attached to the Great Wheel "fluff". Indeed, I can see where WotC might feel the need to re-invent the context, because hearing PS-fans talk about the history of the Wheel always makes me feel like I've tuned in to a current episode of some soap opera that's been running for decades (i.e. WTH is going on, here? who are these people? why is this dude so ticked off at that lady? ). Revamping the history gives latecomers and newbies a chance to catch up, without having to dig through dozens of fan-webpages or track down OOP Planescape game products.

OTOH, I'm not happy about the fact they're dismissing fans' support of how things used to be, for any game-setting. Planescape is perhaps the most susceptible to such alteration of any TSR setting, because nearly every game-world will have some contact with outsiders and their culture -- especially if tieflings become a core race -- but I wouldn't want to see Ravenloft gutted in a similar fashion.

[Igor the Henchman]

OTOH, I'm not happy about the fact they're dismissing fans' support of how things used to be, for any game-setting.

Except that devils and demons aren't exclusive to Planescape - these beasties were classic D&D monsters for several editions before the Planescape campaign box was released. Devils aren't exclusive to Planescape any more than vampires to Ravenloft. Sigil and its factions, yes. Everything else... from what I've seen of 3E, each campaign setting is given its own cosmology.

Heck, the 3E Manual of the Planes completely revamped the plane structure established since 1E, with stuff like upgrading the Plane of Shadow to a full-fledged transitive plane and eliminating quasi- and para-elemental planes.

In cases like these, I believe the "universal" nature of Planescape actually acts as its weakness: it functions on the principle of a "canon" D&D cosmology, a concept that became obsolete as of 3E.

Personally, I like what I'm hearing about the new devils. I remember many times, while flipping through MM II or BoVD, asking myself: "what common theme do these guys have, besides alignment, anyway?" It feels like most "demon" entries in 3E, might just as well been devils or yugoloths, flavor-wise. It got to the point when, for my current D&D campaign, I've declared "devils", "yugoloths" and "slaadi" to be just another type of demon, with the Abyss as the only Lower Plane in the cosmology. And it works quite well.

[HuManBing]

I'd like to see more extraplanar creatures that are truly alien, rather than just being "yet another winged creature with body parts like Earth animals".

If there's a race of creatures from a plane quite different from our own, and they inhabit different dimensions of existence, and they are so superbly powerful that humans mostly fall beneath their notice, then why do they look so familiar?

The calculus that went into creating the Molydeus was obviously "humanoid plus dog plus snake". For the bebilith, it was clearly "spider plus not much else". Even for Succubi and Erinyes, it was basically "human female plus wings".

I understand it's very hard to create completely alien style outer planar monsters. Douglas Adams even spoofs this by departing as far as he could from the familiar with one race of creatures that were "a hyperintelligent shade of the color blue". But the current lineup of fiends and demons looks more like a mad scientist ran amok with animal body parts.

[Algaris]

Sounds like you'd be more at home with the Far Realm then methinks.

[LordGodefroi]

I don't see why the writers go to so much trouble. Cosmology and origin stories are up to the DM and not the game designers. So, why write a "default" cosmology and back story for the core rules when many DMs and, more importantly, published campaign settings will throw it out in favor of their own ?

[The Giamarga]

I don't really think this will have much effect on us here in the demiplane (with all half-dozen fiends we have), but oh how the Planescape people will *howl*....

Excuse me, I'm going to go and make sure they find out....

Edit: Dangit! They already knew.....

Ouch. Hey I'm one of those Planescape people.

[The Giamarga]

I'd like to see more extraplanar creatures that are truly alien, rather than just being "yet another winged creature with body parts like Earth animals".

[...]

I understand it's very hard to create completely alien style outer planar monsters. Douglas Adams even spoofs this by departing as far as he could from the familiar with one race of creatures that were "a hyperintelligent shade of the color blue". But the current lineup of fiends and demons looks more like a mad scientist ran amok with animal body parts.

As Algarsi said, if you're looking for alien outsider you're looking for the Far Realm. The Abyss is not any more alien than the nine hells and I see no reason why it should be. Did you check out Lords of Madness, HMB?

If there's a race of creatures from a plane quite different from our own, and they inhabit different dimensions of existence, and they are so superbly powerful that humans mostly fall beneath their notice, then why do they look so familiar?

Because they represent ideals and human mythoi. The outer planes are not that different. (That's the Far Realms again) They are shaped by the belief(s) of the inhabitants of the Material Plane.

The calculus that went into creating the Molydeus was obviously "humanoid plus dog plus snake". For the bebilith, it was clearly "spider plus not much else". Even for Succubi and Erinyes, it was basically "human female plus wings".

That's only the crunch formula. (And even the crunch of each was different) But there also exists fluff to back these creatures and to differentiate them. So how would you feel if they combined zombies and ghouls and called the result zombie.

The Gentleman Caller is a CE incubus, and thus a demon, part of the Abyss, more or less a free agent so to speak. In 4E he'll be a devil, a fallen angel that rebelled agains some god. Part of the LE hierarchy of the Nine Hells and beholden to Asmodeus.

[WolfKook]

I don't see why the writers go to so much trouble. Cosmology and origin stories are up to the DM and not the game designers. So, why write a "default" cosmology and back story for the core rules when many DMs and, more importantly, published campaign settings will throw it out in favor of their own ?

I guess it is because not all DM are willing (or capable) of doing that, preferring to go on with a published cosmology and backstory instead of creating their own. Haven't you notice all those freaks that seem to know every little detail about a certain D&D subject? I'm sure there are those who believe themselves "experts" in whatever WoTC tells them about the abyss/nine hells.

(And don't look at me. I'm just the messenger... I don't like the whole demonic campaign anyway)

The Gentleman Caller is a CE incubus, and thus a demon, part of the Abyss, more or less a free agent so to speak. In 4E he'll be a devil, a fallen angel that rebelled agains some god. Part of the LE hierarchy of the Nine Hells and beholden to Asmodeus.

Good point. Maybe that would explain the complexity of his hidden agenda, and the (seemingly) methodic pursuit of his goals. We would have to revamp him a little, but in the end, I think we would come up with a GC that makes much more sense (As if he ever has...)

[Ail]

To tell the truth, I know zero or less about the whole planes and demons and devils world. The only thing I find a bit distasteful is to have made the back story so similar, yet again, to Judaic-Christian religion, and in a world where we have lots of true gods, a truly pantheistic world, this back story seems to point at one supreme universal god and that seems to make no sense to me.

But then again, I really never found the will to read about the D&D Cosmology. Even the pages dedicated to it in the DMG have so far escaped my attention.

Alex

[alhoon]

Yeak.

I don't like it. Not because it contradicts what I know already.
Because I don't like the idea of fallen angels that turned fiends in the cursed realm of their god.

I don't like Succubi devils because... it contradicts what I know. OK it makes more sense. But still... Bleah!