Turning undead - whose faith is it, anyway?

[HuManBing]

Short version: When you're turning undead, which faith should you use? Your own? Or the undead's faith?

Discuss.

[HuManBing]

Long version: (with a lot of GURPS mechanics thrown in)

An idea that occurred to me as I was researching my GURPS port of the Ravenloft setting:

This rule only applies to intelligent undead. Mindless undead are too far gone to know the difference, and so any faith's symbol would be sufficient to hold them at bay or turn them.

GURPS has no "turning" effect in the core rules, but they do have a "hold at bay" effect if you have a True Faith advantage. This relies on your own faith and symbol. You do not need to be a cleric (as in: divine spellcaster) but you do need to truly believe in the religion. Thus, this power is defensive - you call on your god to shield you, and the undead cannot come closer than a few meters. They can still get close enough to scare you, or even to throw stuff at you (or cast a spell at you if they're really powerful) but they can't approach you.

I was trying to come up with a way to make them run screaming away from you. A sort of "offensive turning". And the fun thing I came up with was: use their religion's symbol. There's a bit in a film (Fearless Vampire Hunters) when they try to turn a vampire with a Crucifix, and it turns out the vampire is Jewish, so it doesn't care. What if this applied to undead too?

That would slow the pace of the game down. Instead of kicking down the door and going in with swords drawn, the heroes now need to research the backstory of the undead and find out what it worshipped in life. The undead's faith does not need to be strict - basically, any indication of a certain faith's potency will be enough. (Arguably even as minor as being healed by a priest of that faith while in life.) But once you find that faith's symbol, you can use it against that undead to affirmatively turn it.

What do you think?

Just for completeness' sake, here's the breakdown:

Player vs. mindless undead:
1. Hold at bay - automatic success with player's holy symbol, as long as concentrating.
2. Scare away - needs player's holy symbol, plus opposed Will Roll and concentration. Can make one roll per turn until successful (or undead get close enough to start combat).
Clerics: get bonus equal to their level of Power Investiture. (If still using d20 rules, could be a bonus based on Wis or level.)

Player vs. intelligent undead:
1. Hold at bay - needs player's holy symbol, and opposed Will Roll and concentration. One roll per turn until successful.
2. Scare away - impossible unless both player's symbol and symbol of relevance to undead is displayed. Then make opposed Will Roll and concentration to drive undead away.

An undead that's affirmatively scared away must move away from the symbol or suffer a cumulative penalty to all rolls. This penalty starts off equal to whatever margin it failed the initial Will roll by, and increases by -1 each turn thereafter until the undead finds safety from the symbol. (This is a considerably greater penalty in GURPS than it is in d20, because GURPS relies on a 3d6 roll, which has a bell curve probability distribution, so a penalty point is statistically more damaging.) Mindless undead have no choice - they must flee if turned. Intelligent undead can stay and fight, but most have enough wits to see that they will not be able to keep this up for long before retreating.

"Safety" from the symbol means that no part of its body has line-of-sight to the holy symbol. (So merely averting its eyes is not enough - it has to get out of there asap.) Likewise, undead like Strahd Zombies that break apart in combat must withdraw all body parts from the symbol.



Two final campaign-specific notes:

1. It's possible for the undead to have never actively acknowledged the power of any faith in its lifetime. If this atheist state continues even through undeath, then DM can rule that no suitable symbol exists to turn the undead, and turning attempts automatically fail. Azalin is one such example of an undead that would be suitable for this treatment: on Oerth and in Ravenloft, he never relied on any priestly powers and largely considered religions to be a tool for populace control. This could also explain why revenants like Ratik Ubel might be completely unturnable - if you've lived your life as a thief in Il Aluk, you could quite understandably never have acknowledged any religion except as bunkum.

2. The sole exception to this is the Holy Symbol of Ravenkind, which can turn any intelligent undead as though it were their own faith (even atheistic undead like Azalin). This power only functions in Ravenloft. The reason behind this is that the Holy Symbol of Ravenkind is so closely tied to the creation of the Demiplane that the Dark Powers allow it to exert its power on everything inside the Demiplane. This makes it suitably unique among artifacts, but only while within Ravenloft's bounds.

[Archedius]

I LOVE this idea! Adding this to my houserules. This is a beautiful way to add depth to the setting. GJ, HuManBing!

[Ornum]

(Note: I'm trying to remember the names of gods, so I'll probably spell them incorrectly. Fair warning that a bit of deciphering might be in order.)

If your game uses the undead's past faith against them instead of just any faith, then I would suggest allowing for the holy symbols from gods of the related pantheon to also work the same. The whole cross vs. Jewish vampire example above works because the two religions are different. However, if a worshipper of Boccob became a lich and was shown the holy symbol of St. Cuthbert, then it should work because both are of the same pantheon (it's not like a worshipper of one of those gods denies the other, there's just either a difference of opinion on the god's importance or it's simply a matter of personal taste). With that in mind, Thor's holy symbol probably wouldn't work against said lich. With Ravenloft, I'm not sure the same pantheon rule would be a big deal, because it's not like all the gods are always represented. I'd probably go as far as to allow the same pantheon to work, disalow different pantheons, and then add some sort of bonus to the attempt when presenting the symbol of the same god.

On another related note, I'd go as far as to say certain gods could only turn/destroy undead without the ability to command them (if that already isn't the case). Sun gods (Ra, Pelor, etc.) come to mind. And on the other end of the spectrum, I'd think gods like Nerull would only be able to command them and not turn/rebuke/destroy/whatever.

I'm probably making this more complicated than needed, to be honest.

[Joël of the FoS]

While this makes realism of the game go up, it is a pain in the pattokus for players, considering the number of faiths in RL.

But the idea has potential: I'd restrict that to a specific type of undead, perhaps something fun to add to Toben the (Too) Many?

Joël

[alhoon]

Heh... Toben is mostly faithless. He's just afraid of the mists, not honoring the faith of even an evil deity.

As for undead and turning, Honestly I believe the system works fine as it is. Not just the cleric's faith, but the connection with a greater power that he channels through his holy symbol is what turns undead away.

Why it doesn't apply to evil outsiders is kinda beyond me.

[Mortavius]

4E has a nice explanation for that Alhoon.

Devils are Immortals; they were angels before their fall. Thus, a godly power doesn't hold them at bay.

Demons are Elementals, not undead. Just because they're tainted by evil doesn't mean squat. Otherwise, a Cleric would be able to turn a serial murderer or even an Orc.

Of course, if you're looking for a 3E answer, then this doesn't help at all. Isn't there prestige classes or feats or something that allows a Turn Undead attempt to apply to Outsiders in 3E?

[alhoon]

I was looking for an OD&D answer actually and an early 2nd edition answer. That's when I was messing with the idea of turning demons etc and exorcism.

[HuManBing]

But the idea has potential: I'd restrict that to a specific type of undead, perhaps something fun to add to Toben the (Too) Many?

Yeah, I think it's best restricted to only the more memorable undead. In the second post, I toy with the idea of making it merely self-willed undead, but even that is arguably too big a category. It might only apply to specific undead as the DM feels fit, especially where a prior faith is very powerful.

The counterargument to this is that most PCs encountering an intelligent undead for the first time will not be able to turn it, which does seem largely in keeping with the intent of Ravenloft as a place where undead are uniformly stronger and more intimidating. If they're lucky, they'll be able to hold it at bay for a while, but all that does is maintain the standoff. It could make for a nervewracking first encounter, especially given that the undead is also busy observing the PCs even at standoff distances, learning all that it can about them...

[Rotipher of the FoS]

True, that would be a suspenseful situation ... the first couple of times. After that, it'd be a hassle for cleric-players who can't use one of their major class abilities, and for those DMs who'd like to stage a brief, Turn-aborted skirmish between an undead villain and the heroes. Frankly, I'd just slap some Turn Resistance on an undead if I didn't want Turning to affect it, call it a salient ability, and leave issues of faith out of the picture altogether.

[Rotipher of the FoS]

I was looking for an OD&D answer actually and an early 2nd edition answer. That's when I was messing with the idea of turning demons etc and exorcism.

Well, Turning did affect fiends in 1st edition AD&D. Nothing says you can't simply restore that rule IYC, although I'd suggest not including the paladin-Turning option for Evil clerics. (Command Undead repelling celestials would be fine.)

In-character, you could always say that fiends are plugged directly into a source of power (the Lower Planes) which is equal in power to anything that a mortal cleric can channel from the Outer Planes. Undead, even if they're extremely evil, are still derived from creatures of the mortal realm, and don't tap into anything nearly so potent for their strength.

That rationale wouldn't work in a setting where monotheism applies, BTW, as God-capital-G is presumed to be much stronger than the forces of Hell. Hence, movies like The Exorcist show demons being Turned by holy power. But in a setting where gods-lower-case-g aren't infallible or all-powerful, and Good and Evil are more evenly matched, it may suffice as a justification.

[Tobias Blackburn]

I've got to agree with Rotipher. It isn't fair to shut down a character's class ability just because they aren't aware of the undead's former belief system.

Clerics channel positive or negative energy when they turn/rebuke. In that case they are using divine power in the same way they do in casting spells. An undead that used to worship the Lawgiver suffers just as much damage from a Searing Ray cast by a cleric of Hala, Belenius, the Ancestoral Choir or Ezra as they do from a cleric of the Lawgiver.

But I love the moment in old movies when the non-ordained hero unveils the crucifix and drives the vampire back through faith.

One thing I allow is for certain undead (like vampires) to be held at bay as discussed in Van Richten's Arsenal, so long as the person holding it up has absolute and true faith. Other times I add in salient vulnerabilities to specific holy symbols, such as a cleric of Ezra, who truly believed that all other gods were demons and monsters, being turned into a vampire and can no longer stand the mere presence of her holy symbol on a wall but can pick her teeth with one from the Lawgiver.

[HuManBing]

That rationale wouldn't work in a setting where monotheism applies [...] But in a setting where gods-lower-case-g aren't infallible or all-powerful, and Good and Evil are more evenly matched, it may suffice as a justification.

This came up in the discussion on the GURPS forums. Much of Gothic literature was written during a time when Christianity was still very much the sole religion for the authors and for society in general. But Ravenloft was written during a time when the world was becoming more multitheistic and even atheistic.

The monotheistic paradigm would suggest that a person holding their own symbol (which is presumably "the only right religion", as Christianity would historically have been held in literature) could turn an undead no matter what.

If you follow a polytheistic paradigm, however, then something like my proposal could be useful in nerfing the turn undead mechanic slightly. It doesn't make clerics completely useless - they're still better at what they do than an unanointed PC, but all PCs need to do some background study to figure out what makes this particular undead tick. (If you're concerned about slowing down Turn-Undead combat against mindless undead mooks, go ahead and house rule that mindless undead are vulnerable to all symbols. You'll find this house rule already incorporated in the top post.)

In my view, Ravenloft is already polytheistic. Also, the Dark Powers make turning more difficult. So I reckon my proposal is a good way to incorporate these two factors. It also gives me a neat little way to make the Holy Symbol of Ravenkind truly remarkable and unique in the Demiplane.

The final notes I will make are:

a) in the d20 system, I have long believed that clerics are slightly overpowered and that a reduction of turning power could help redress the balance, barring a more nuanced rebalancing - obviously your mileage may vary and I'm not going to debate or elaborate on this point as I'm too far removed from d20 to comment knowledgeably, and

b) in GURPS nobody can turn. The mechanic simply does not exist in the rules as written. Also, there is no such thing as a character "class", so fears of nerfing a class to the detriment of game balance don't apply from a rules standpoint.

As you can see, my proposal is somewhat less powerful than d20's cinematic-level clerics, but not quite as constrained by realism as the GURPS characters.

[HuManBing]

If your game uses the undead's past faith against them instead of just any faith, then I would suggest allowing for the holy symbols from gods of the related pantheon to also work the same.

That could work too. Many pantheons actually recognize several different gods, even if a person only actively worships one at any given time. In Greek and Roman society, you prayed to whichever god's help you needed at that time (so you'd sacrifice to Thetis before a sea journey, or to Artemis before you deliver a baby, etc.). So even if a given undead cleric once served Athena, the symbol of Zeus or Hera could drive it off.

This could introduce other issues like whether the symbol is of a lesser or greater god, but that might be getting too complicated. Gruumsh was injured by Corellon Larethian, but does that mean he's less powerful? Might be better to just treat all gods as equal, but to allow some commonality of recognition for a pantheon. It may be worth reducing the chance of success with an imperfect match, so that the PCs are still motivated to find the exact suitable god's symbol.

[Rotipher of the FoS]

True, incorporating the god's power-level into the results would only drive players away from PCs' devoting themselves to less powerful deities. An FR cleric whose personality is perfect for Ilmater's faith shouldn't suffer (well, suffer more ), just because their player chose to have them follow that faith rather than Tyr's, for example.

Of course, if the deities of different pantheons interact, that begs the question of who is, or isn't, treated as part of Pantheon X. You mention the ol' Corellon/Gruumsh smackdown, which has been a fixture of D&D's default elven and orcish religions ever since Moore's old "Point of View" articles. If a campaign uses 2E's full roster of elven and orcish gods, but it also incorporates that battle into its mythic history, does that mean that both undead orcs and elves must acknowledge and yield to one another's clerics? Or are they able to ignore them because they serve a pantheon that's not actually worshipped by their own race?