Werewolf and Wolfwere confusion....

[jamesfirecat]

It's an established fact that werewolves and wolfweres don't get along (the hatred probably started on the wolfwere's part who see werewolves as humans cosplaying as wolves rather than real lupines) with each other.

That said, how do they tell one another apart?

Okay a group of wolfweres could in theory demand that the lupine shapeshifter in question show it can take both a male and female form which is something wolfweres can do that werewolves can't, but what can werewolves do to prove someone is a werewolf and not a wolfwere? The only thing I can think of is making them bite somebody and see if they get infected but that's not always a sure thing and would probably take too long for a good test.

Should I just assume that wolfweres and werewolves smell really different from one another?

[Dark Angel]

Much of a dog's (and presumably wolf's) behavior and interaction is based on scents so that might be a fair method of being able to tell a werewolf from a wolfwere from a mundane wolf. That being said however, they should only be able to do while in their lupine forms as being able to do so in their humanoid ones would be a detrimental advantage to those situations.

[jamesfirecat]

That being said however, they should only be able to do while in their lupine forms as being able to do so in their humanoid ones would be a detrimental advantage to those situations.

Isn't "detrimental advantage" an oxymoron?

[Dark Angel]

That being said however, they should only be able to do while in their lupine forms as being able to do so in their humanoid ones would be a detrimental advantage to those situations.

Isn't "detrimental advantage" an oxymoron?

Not if your players are in a tavern with the aforementioned creatures. Then it becomes a real problem (for them).

[Gonzoron of the FoS]

Yup, I'd go by smell, for sure. Or somehow they "just know," instinctively. Just because humans can't pick up the subtlety doesn't mean they all look alike.

[Nathan of the FoS]

I think there's a scene in Feast of Goblyns where there's a werewolf in the Old Kartakan Inn, just hanging out? Maybe I'm confabulating that, though.

The quickest way to tell would be to cut the suspect with a silver knife (gold for mountain loop garou), and then a cold iron knife, and see which one hurts. You could also demand that they sing, since the wolfweres have a sleep song and the werewolves don't--unless the werewolf is a bard who knows sleep, I suppose.

OH! Another way--wolfweres can take any human form (except Harkon Lukas, because of his curse, and even he has a female form he can take), whereas werewolves only have the one human form. EDIT: Whoops, you already got this one.

There's also the possibility of the werewolf having an involuntary transformation due to the phase of the moon, command from the progenitor of their bloodline, etc., which wolfweres wouldn't be subject to.

At any rate, I like the idea that there's no easy way to tell; you can be a werewolf hangin' out with the wolfweres, or vice versa, for a good long time, and if you're smart (and lucky) no-one will ever know!

[Bluebomber4evr]

I'd say it's ultimately a psychological/behavioral difference.

For all their bestial behavior, werewolves are originally humans. Humanity is the core of their being, the origin of their worldview, with the wolf aspect added later. Most of their behavioral cues are informed by their humanity, even if their bestial wolf nature separates them from the rest of the non-lycanthropic humans. Their psychology is familiar to humans, even though they are bestial at times. Werewolves probably view wolfweres as bad at pretending to be humans, since wolfweres are not human, and thus more likely to make normal humans suspicious.

Wolfweres, on the other hand, are wolves with the magical ability to shapechange into a human. They are not human and never have been. They are wolves at the core, and their way of thinking and behaving is wolf-like. This is why they view werewolves as humans pretending to be wolves. Wolfwere psychology is alien to humans.

There's probably a lot of overlap in some of their behavior that, to a normal human, would seem identical, but a wolfwere would tell the differences in a werewolf's behavior. Likewise, a werewolf would know that a wolfwere in human form was not what they seem based on their behavior. The use of scent as mentioned above would just confirm whatever suspicions they have.

Then there's also the predatory competitor aspect. Each would view the other as a threat to their hunting territory.

[Dark Angel]

I'd say it's ultimately a psychological/behavioral difference. For all their bestial behavior, werewolves are originally humans. Humanity is the core of their being, the origin of their worldview, with the wolf aspect added later. Most of their behavioral cues are informed by their humanity, even if their bestial wolf nature separates them from the rest of the non-lycanthropic humans. Their psychology is familiar to humans, even though they are bestial at times. Werewolves probably view wolfweres as bad at pretending to be humans, since wolfweres are not human, and thus more likely to make normal humans suspicious.

I see your point for infected werewolves, but do true werewolves still exist in 3rd+ editions? Then they may never have what others could regard as a sense of humanity, but wolfweres would be more analogous to dopplegangers. Predatory magical creatures that bear similarities towards other monsters who are more infected with (or born into a condition) of a being through magical means. Hopefully that made as much sense as a sleep deprived and addled mind can manage...

[jamesfirecat]

I see your point for infected werewolves, but do true werewolves still exist in 3rd+ editions? Then they may never have what others could regard as a sense of humanity, but wolfweres would be more analogous to dopplegangers. Predatory magical creatures that bear similarities towards other monsters who are more infected with (or born into a condition) of a being through magical means. Hopefully that made as much sense as a sleep deprived and addled mind can manage...

According to Van Richten's Guide to Werewolves (which doesn't have anything to do with 3rd edition but still) he talks about how true/natural werewolves are still born as human beings and live in human shape until they hit puberty at which point they gain their shapeshifting powers. So while they might know from birth they are a werewolf unless they've living Mowgli style with the pack out in the wilderness for the first decade and change, they would still probably be a lot quicker to pick up on human verbal/facial cues a lot quicker and more effectively than wolfweres would.

[Dark Angel]

I see your point for infected werewolves, but do true werewolves still exist in 3rd+ editions? Then they may never have what others could regard as a sense of humanity, but wolfweres would be more analogous to dopplegangers. Predatory magical creatures that bear similarities towards other monsters who are more infected with (or born into a condition) of a being through magical means. Hopefully that made as much sense as a sleep deprived and addled mind can manage...

According to Van Richten's Guide to Werewolves (which doesn't have anything to do with 3rd edition but still) he talks about how true/natural werewolves are still born as human beings and live in human shape until they hit puberty at which point they gain their shapeshifting powers. So while they might know from birth they are human unless they've living Mowgli style with the pack out in the wilderness for the first decade and change, they would still probably be a lot quicker to pick up on human verbal/facial cues a lot quicker and more effectively than wolfweres would.

True, but values tend to be passed down and I have a conceptual issue with the concept of humanity regarding a race (for lack of a better word) that consumes humans (more of a focus on the werewolves, tigers, foxes, and rats). I make a stance that even as similar as they can be a werewolf would see a wolfwere as a more unnatural creature. They possess more fantastic abilities (wider range of shapeshifting, sleep effects, etc). Lycanthropes have an easier time identifying with their potential prey in that respect and then would seem to possess 'humanity' when dealing with their own kind whom they have lived with. Even offspring of werecreatures will protect and watch over their children prior to their first change because they are still lycanthropes and don't have a chance to shirk the infection as a human who got bitten would be able to.

Odd bits of thought right now, how would a changling child work within a werecreature's family unit? They would possess more shapechanging abilities, but may not be able to 'sense' the others as they should be able to. If they cannot perceive the scent (or sense with other's arguments), would they be able to pull of the 'disguise' or would they get shredded upon first change when they don't smell the same as others?

[Gonzoron of the FoS]

I see your point for infected werewolves, but do true werewolves still exist in 3rd+ editions?

Yes, they do. Those are the ones that are trickier to distinguish from wolfweres, but Gazetteer I's Katakass chapter did the best job for me in giving wolfweres are real personality. Werewolves (even naturally-born ones) represent a person who gives in to their bestial aspects. Wolfweres represent the trickster spirits of the wild, who take human form to better prey on them.

[AdamGarou]

I think the whole "Ravenloft hides things" concept comes into play here as well. I can more easily see werewolves and wolfweres identifying each other by scent (and having that scent be keen enough to differentiate between the two types of creature) if we're on Oerth or Krynn or Toril. Sort of the equivalent of the good old detect evil/know alignment/true seeing spells that adventurers rely on as a reflex, and that pretty much always work.

As we know, here in the Mists, things ain't that easy.

I seem to recall (years and YEARS ago ) this came up during the Galen Saga storyline. The route we took was basically this - they can smell someone in human form and know instinctively that there's something lupine about them, but scent alone isn't enough to tell for certain whether the target is a werewolf or a wolfwere.

Awhile after the Saga ended, I posted a standalone scene between two characters from that storyline, set ten years later, that took place in the Old Kartakan Inn and Tavern. Two brothers - one a werewolf [Jacob], one apparently not [Xander], having a conversation in the midst of a crowd of of wolfweres. At the end, one of the wolfweres made to follow/stalk Xander as he was departing -- and Jacob "convinced" her to forego the chase by claiming that HE was hunting "the human" (and intimidating the crap out of her so she'd seek easier prey). But it was a status/alpha thing - she knew he was a wolf of some kind, but assumed he was like her (albeit more powerful).

It was a lot of fun, and it opens up a lot of possibilities - as Nathan mentioned, as long as you've got the fangs and are good at bluffing (and maybe have icewater in your veins instead of blood ), you can hide out among your "enemies" and they won't be the wiser. It was intended as the start of a "next-generation" campaign idea, with Jacob being sent in to spy on Harkon Lukas' activities while actually working for a splinter-group of druidic anchorites (although it sadly never went beyond that).

All that said, I figure a Soul Searcher Medallion (from Van Richten's Arsenal in 3.5) might distinguish between the two, since it's an exception to the rule of the Dark Powers keeping such absolute truths hidden. YMMV.

[vachtor]

Any thoughts on how either would react on encountering a Shifter? I'm assuming it would likely be the same or even worse (for the shifter)...

[Gonzoron of the FoS]

I know very little of shifters, but since they are part-lycanthrope, I suppose the werewolves would treat them similarly to how elves treat half-elves or vistani treat half-vistani. i.e., like the runt of the litter, but still (unfortunately) part of the family. They might pick on them a bit, but would close ranks and accept their help when an outside mutual threat appears. Wolfweres would probably see the shifter's lycanthropic blood like we'd view a fly in our soup. "Waiter, this prey's a bit spoiled."