4Edition. Do you like it?

[HuManBing]

There's not a lot I can respond to here, because frankly, a lot of it is opinions, and who's to say that one person's opinion is wrong and another's is right?

I can point to things that WotC does that inspire loyalty from me

Absolutely. I get the impression that WotC did put a lot of effort into online tools, and in this respect I think they may be the industry trailblazers.

Also, my own disinclination to the d20 ruleset is purely my own opinion. And my opinion is not static, either: it evolved over time to a state where I prioritize flexibility and customizability of the rules over ease of use. But it's important to recognize that, without the ease of use, I might never have gotten into RPGs in the first place. d20 is the most popular gaming system, and with good reason: it's very well suited to introducing newcomers, and the class system gives structure that's easy to follow. What one player calls a limitation is often another player's guidance.

It's definitely a matter of personal taste.

[Mortavius]

I think the DDI is meant to be used by your group. After all, why with one subscription, are you allowed 5 updates a month? They only issue one content update each month; and the few times that they have issued a second to correct some bugs, they explicitly stated that they were resetting everyone's 5 free downloads because of it.

(Why for example would they give you a number of 5 updates? 5 players in a party...)

And Jester, I think you mentioned that the Monster Builder has had no updates? That's not true; there was one just a little while ago that I downloaded.

[alhoon]

Fact: 4E D&D isn't "defective," as alhoon said, any more than any other D&D product is "defective."

While 3rd edition when it came out also had flaws, I find 4E more flawed. For example the skill challenges, one of the most basic for the game core mechanics was flawed, in need of a correction.

The Monster building tools in the DMG aren't good enough. Where's the rules for minions? In DMG2. What about Solos being boring and elites not being powerful enough? DMG2.
What about which power is good for each level? No rules. Check the Monstrous manual and hope what you see was playtested correct.

I have to admit, I find it strange. I have seen a lot of complaints about 4E on these forums, but people still seem to be buying the books. If the system is so bad, why keep buying the product? By doing so, you're encouraging WotC to continue doing what you don't like.

Of course we complain! We pay for it.
Why we keep buying it? Because for all its flaws, 4E is a good system. Not as good as 3rd edition for me most of the time, but still good.

It plays fast!
Sure, it gets boring sooner than 3E and the options are limited, but still 4E was worth the money.

Also it is mathematically structured in a way that allows for far easier and quicker statistic research and better conclusions.
That allows the developers to balance it far easier.

[HuManBing]

Fact: 4E D&D isn't "defective," as alhoon said, any more than any other D&D product is "defective." To be defective, it has to have a flaw or be faulty. Under that definition, EVERY edition of D&D is defective, as none of them have been perfect.

If you're talking in absolutes, then this statement could be a fact. I.e. "4E is flawed in some way, but so were all of its precursors". If you're talking in relative terms, this statement rapidly enters the realm of opinion. It's not clear what you mean, because you say "any more than". It could be interpreted as reading "4E is flawed but its flaws are lesser ones than earlier editions". This is an extremely shaky proposition to present baldly as a fact here, and it's especially ironic given your earlier appeal for us to recognize opinions for what they are. Not that I disagree with you, but just pointing out areas for clarification.

So saying Wizards sold you a defective product alhoon, well guess what? They've been doing it for over 25 years.

This argument is valid but doesn't do anything to further 4E. In fact, if used once too often against a DnD 3E fan, it could lead to them to conclude that the entire system has been flawed from the beginning and abandoning DnD altogether for something else. It happened to me, for example.

I have to admit, I find it strange. I have seen a lot of complaints about 4E on these forums, but people still seem to be buying the books.

The first theory is maybe the people who voice their opposition are not the same people as the ones buying the books.

If the system is so bad, why keep buying the product? By doing so, you're encouraging WotC to continue doing what you don't like.

I arrived at this same conclusion in May 2008. We are in complete agreement here.

[Mortavius]

Very good point Human, I should have phrased it better to say that "4E is flawed but so has every other edition of D&D been." That makes it clearer; I certainly don't want to get into a debate of comparing 4E's flaws to 3E's flaws and 2E's flaws, because a lot of that will be subjective, as the debate here already is. (For example, many of the things that people cite as flaws in 4E here are not flaws to me.)

And yes, you're right that it doesn't do anything to further 4E. But alhoon's comment of "Wizards sold me a defective product" just really rubbed me the wrong way and I had to respond to it. Sorry alhoon, but it sounded way too much like a little kid whining when you said that. Not saying you are one, or anything like that; that's just the way the statement came across to me, personally.

And it's true about people owning/not owning the books, but I know from the posts here that alhoon and Jester (two of the main people speaking out against 4E here) do have the books. What I don't know, is if they are obtaining them illegaly or not. And really, that's not my place to speculate on, so I just assume they are doing everything on the up and up until they claim otherwise.

And alhoon, I agree with you on the note about the Skill Challenges; I just figure that it's something they missed for some reason. I don't know what they do when they playtest, or how thoroughly they do. So I refuse to make speculations on whether they playtested enough or not. It just seems bass-ackward to me. Until I know for a fact what they did I'm not going to say that they didn't do enough.

For my part, Skill Challenges were broken; they were fixed relatively quickly. It hardly impacted my games, so I'm not upset about it. I don't expect perfection from what I get, so I'm not disappointed when something is broken but then fixed. As for the monster building tools, I would present the opinion that those sorts of things belong in the MM2; I think creating monsters from scratch is a more advanced sort of thing, and a beginning DM with the three core books should be able to do just fine with what they have in the MM.

[alhoon]

And yes, you're right that it doesn't do anything to further 4E. But alhoon's comment of "Wizards sold me a defective product" just really rubbed me the wrong way and I had to respond to it.

Fact: 4E D&D isn't "defective," as alhoon said, any more than any other D&D product is "defective."

While 3rd edition when it came out also had flaws, I find 4E more flawed. For example the skill challenges, one of the most basic for the game core mechanics was flawed, in need of a correction.

The Monster building tools in the DMG aren't good enough. Where's the rules for minions? In DMG2. What about Solos being boring and elites not being powerful enough? DMG2.
What about which power is good for each level? No rules. Check the Monstrous manual and hope what you see was playtested correct.

I answered already.

And it's true about people owning/not owning the books, but I know from the posts here that alhoon and Jester (two of the main people speaking out against 4E here) do have the books.

I don't own all the books. I just have the 3 core books, Martial power and arcane power. While not having Adventurer's vault I guess all the material inside is in the Character builder, so no biggie.

As a note, I'm not interested to buy more books at the time, except DMG2 if I find it since Jester said it's good. Why? Because I have to order them and then wait 20 days for them to arrive. Then I have to read them and make notes of what I want since I can't carry a bunch of books around with me.
No PDFs means no books for me.

last but not least: I'm not one of the main people that speak against 4e!
I speak both for and against it. While it may be buried pages back, I have defended 4E. All I said is "It's good but I prefer 3rd."
And let's not forget that I alternate between 4E and 3e in my games.
Sometimes, I'm in the mood for 4E. Sometimes I'm in the mood for 3e. Sometimes I'm in the mood for nWoD.

[Jester of the FoS]

There's not a lot I can respond to here, because frankly, a lot of it is opinions, and who's to say that one person's opinion is wrong and another's is right?

I can point to things that WotC does that inspire loyalty from me

Absolutely. I get the impression that WotC did put a lot of effort into online tools, and in this respect I think they may be the industry trailblazers.

Then what does that make HeroForge?
Or the two studios that tried to do it for 3.0?
Or the character generator/manager for 2e that contained all the core books?
It's not a new idea, not even for D&D. But I don't think other gaming studios have the money to back such a project or want to move from book publisher to software designer.

d20 is the most popular gaming system, and with good reason: it's very well suited to introducing newcomers, and the class system gives structure that's easy to follow. What one player calls a limitation is often another player's guidance.

I would argue d20 is the most popular because of its name. Everyone has heard of "Dungeons & Dragons" but no one has heard of GURPS or Palladium but someone who is already a gamer.
It's well-suited to newcomers because it was designed that way.

And Jester, I think you mentioned that the Monster Builder has had no updates? That's not true; there was one just a little while ago that I downloaded.

They had a content update but I didn't see any changes to the actual builder. And since then I've had some serious, serious glitches (millions of hitpoints) and heard stories of it wiping customized monsters (so I'm very happy I didn't get around to entering all my monsters yet).

[Jester of the FoS]

As a note, I'm not interested to buy more books at the time, except DMG2 if I find it since Jester said it's good. Why? Because I have to order them and then wait 20 days for them to arrive. Then I have to read them and make notes of what I want since I can't carry a bunch of books around with me.
No PDFs means no books for me.

I'm keeping my books lite too and relying on friends, DDI, and the library for much of my knowledge (inter-library loans are your friend. When you have the combined books of your entire state it's easier getting D&D books).

But I bend DMG2 because, as a 4e DM, that is a valuable resource.
20 pages on skill challenges with the new DCs, new traps and design advice (including solo traps), terrain, monster themes (new powers for customization), a dozen templates plus the PHB2 class templates, alternate treasure rewards (I *love* these), advice on organizations, paragon tier campaigns, and more.

It's *small* though. Smaller than the DMG1 which was already criminally small and smaller than the PHB by a good 100 pages. Do NOT pay full cover price but wait for a time when you can Amazon it and other things for free shipping or find a used copy on eBay.

[alhoon]

But I bend DMG2 because, as a 4e DM, that is a valuable resource.
20 pages on skill challenges with the new DCs, new traps and design advice (including solo traps), terrain, monster themes (new powers for customization), a dozen templates plus the PHB2 class templates, alternate treasure rewards (I *love* these), advice on organizations, paragon tier campaigns, and more.

It's *small* though. Smaller than the DMG1 which was already criminally small and smaller than the PHB by a good 100 pages. Do NOT pay full cover price but wait for a time when you can Amazon it and other things for free shipping or find a used copy on eBay.

Hey, I payed full price for DMG1 and it seems that the things I needed were in DMG2.
I play usually 8+level if we don't start straight paragon.

However: I don't use templates, I make my own monsters. And to defend DMG1, the skill challenges in there were salvagable. Really, I just twinked the DCs to suit the party. And I doupt the new rules will be SO good that they take in consideration my party.

As a note have they finally realised that the skill challenge should have lesser DCs for smaller parties?
Have they combined Skill challenge and combat?
I had an encounter in a game where the cleric was trying to open a sealed gate with religion skills, and another char was helping with endurance skills. All the while Minions were spawing and throwing themselves on the PCs trying to hinder them, giving penalties to the rolls or even trying to move the 2 chars out of the positions they should hold for the ritual.
A chance to get 3d6+6 to the whole party AND have to restart the skill challenge made the minions challenging for once.

[Mortavius]

Here's my opinion of a summary of the recent discussion (and if I'm getting this wrong please correct me, because this is what I'm basing my responses on):

** as a note, I use the prefix "I" here not from my own point, but as a summary tool only.

-- 4E was released with some large flaws in my opinion

THEREFORE

-- 4E must not have been playtested enough

THEREFORE

-- WotC must have been pushing 4E out the door fast for financial gain

THEREFORE

-- WotC must not care about their public / must only be concerned with profit, etc., etc., pick your poison.


Does anyone else see a fatal flaw in this whole thing?

It's all speculation.

I'm all for discussions, like where Jester told me that the Invoker was more powerful than the Wizard, and then went on to cite powers and comparisons (which I have yet to do myself, but still fully intend to). These types of discussions are based on verifiable facts and can be the same across the board. I can respect that.

But this is as far as a civilized discussion based on opinion can go:

I like X.
I don't like X.

I suppose you could take it further, citing reasons why you do/don't like X, in hopes that you could change the other person's mind, but in my experience, this almost never occurs. Someone who's already made up their mind on whether they like something or not usually already has reasons why, and they don't often change their opinion so drastically.

And as a side note to Jester's comments about the Monster Builder, I can't argue the flaws in it...but it does have a BIG stamp on the front that says "Beta." I don't know about you, but when I play with something in Beta format, I expect flaws and bugs.

[Jester of the FoS]

4E was released with some large flaws in my opinion

If by "in my opinion" you mean a large percentage of community and the developers who quickly updated and re-wrote an expansive section of the DMG.

THEREFORE

4E must not have been playtested enough

It didn't take long to notice the problems, and they showed-up very early in the initial games at D&D Experience in 2008.

It may be speculation, but it is based on reasonable evidence. They had their priorities and decided to set their release date in stone, whether the game was ready or not.

And as a side note to Jester's comments about the Monster Builder, I can't argue the flaws in it...but it does have a BIG stamp on the front that says "Beta." I don't know about you, but when I play with something in Beta format, I expect flaws and bugs.

I've been in the beta for three MMOs and have seen rapid-fire patching, updating, and changes to beta software.
The monster builder has been out for three months and nada. For a beta it is pretty solid and usable and will be nice when finished, but some progress would be nice. Over the course of its one-month beta the character builder had some heavy, heavy UI changes and constant improvements.

[alhoon]

Over the course of its one-month beta the character builder had some heavy, heavy UI changes and constant improvements.

And still, WotC won't accept my credit card. I called the bank to ask what's the problem. They told me they saw the transaction in the card's file at the time I gave them, saw that the WotC have accepted the money initially... but then a few mins later they just relinquished them back in my account.
They didn't know why. I'm stuck without the DDI, and I can't find the DDI support page!

The Character Builder is simply the best tool for RPGs I have seen, the main reason I kept playing 4E (when I lost CB due to a virus, is when I stopped the 4E campaign) and I would pay handsomely for it.
If you have the character builder in your computer, the DMshield in your table and the table of monster building from page 184 DMG, you can play 4E like you had most if not all of the books.

People tell me about PHB2 and PHB3. You don't sell me the PDFs? Fine, I'll get them through character builder. The same goes with Divine power. I'll skim it once when I find it and then I'll find all the details I need in the CB.

The Character Builder is like the OGL of 3rd edition. It's SO good that you wonder why they would release it.

You want further proof of how good the CB is? You can find all shorts of complains about 4E in this thread. From the 21 pages, about 80% is either rant against it, or at least a complain.
But still in all those complains from all those people you won't find a single complain about the character builder.

[Jester of the FoS]

Well... I've *technically* complained that the more recent stuff is tacked-on and not fully integrated, but I imagine that's due to deadlines for the updates. Months when DM books or adventures come-out are probably catch-up time (or were before the Adventure Tools).

I'd recommend posting your problem on the DDI forum. MudBunny there is fairly reliable and getting the attention of higher-ups and resolving issues.

DDI now also takes PayPal, so that's another option.

[alhoon]

I don't have paypal.

[poolboydeluxe]

I don't have paypal.

IIRC, you can use paypal to pay for something without having an account these days. They have a one-time use option, I believe.